[Project Complete]Aug 20 : $300 : LOGO FOR REAL ESTATE PUBLISHER $300

[benitorealty]

Admin code added by Abby - 5XB47098DA056311E, 3WR37857SR536182J

$100 added to have Vector & Raster Image made of the Logo.
Abby Please post Admin code to confirm receipt of funds.

[B]Project Summary:
Logo Design

Company Info:
Foreclosure Sniper Publishing, LLC.
Attn: Henry Benito
4000 Ponce De Leon Blvd, Ste 470
Coral Gables, FL 33146

What text should be included in the main part of the logo?
FORECLOSURE SNIPER
(Designers- please vote 1-5 for Tag-line or no tag line at all)
1. Ultra Investor Training
2. Real Estate Academy
3. Precision Learning Systems
4. Precision Profits Training
5. Precision Profits Academy

[B]What type of product or service do you offer?
Education, Instruction, Training services, namely, providing live online workshops, seminars, lectures, classes, conferences in the field of real estate investments, namely, buying and selling real estate for achieving personal wealth, information and internet marketing on new products, and product licensing;

How long have you been in business?
Startup doing training, Investor for 7 years.

What do you hope to accomplish with your new identity?
Brand recognition. The logo has to convey that this is the the premier training to real estate investors in the field of buying and selling foreclosure properties. This must be conveyed by the logo, while also trying to convey the military theme of the live events "bootcamps".

What are your long term goals?
Students nationwide achieving success in their own businesses using our course of instruction investing in real estate.

When is the deadline for final entries before choosing a designer?
20 August, 2007

Audience Profile:
Please describe your existing audience
People interested in investing in real estate and specifically making big profits flipping foreclosure properties.

Who would you like to add to your audience?
Real Estate Agents

Perception/Tone/Guidelines:
What type of logo would you like?
I have attached something I typed up in publisher with a Stencil Font that looks military to me. I would like something resembling the cross hairs of a sniper rifle scope / picture of a sniper and a outline of a house to signify how you can take down a house to make a big profit, however I am open to anything if you feel something would be very good. You can try your suggestions on me. I don't have an existing website setup but logo will reside at www.foreclosuresniper.com

Do you have any colors in mind for your logo? (if so, why?)Military Colors- Camoflauge, olive green, or tan or black- different variations of those colors would help so I can decide what looks best. Doesnt have to be camo- see military type artwork at this website http://www.coolmilitary.com/index.html
Why.... the name.

Do you have any specific images or icons in mind that you would definitely like to see incorporated into your logo?
Please type in "sniper cross hairs" in Google Images to see what that is if you have never looked through a rifle scope.
2nd attached file has a Nice Fonts also and Unites States font spread apart the bottom looks great.


Communication Strategy:
What attributes would you like your logo to reflect about your business? I want to make it look military and a professional Image. Image needs to refect that this is the Elite training program for this niche.

What is your tagline or slogan?
(Designers- please vote 1-5 for Tag-line or no tag line at all)
1. Ultra Investor Training
2. Real Estate Academy
3. Precision Learning Systems
4. Precision Profits Training
5. Precision Profits Academy

What is the overall message you are trying to convey to your target audience?
The Best of the Best, Exclusive, Professional, Scarcity. Attend our training, buy our home study course, subscribe to our newslettter, etc. (get the most effective information you need to succeed in the foreclosure business)

Where will your new logo be used?
Website, Direct Mail, business cards, T-Shirts and Polo's, Banners at training events, Graphics for CD's Manuals

Competitive Positioning:
Who are your competitors and what do you think about their logos? competitors either have no logo or a really bad one. I think the ones below have good logos.

List competitive URLs if possible
shortsales4profit.com
investorriches.com

What sets you apart from your competitors?
knowledge, support and over delivery of content

Targeted Message:
State a single-minded word or phrase that will appropriately describe your company:
Skillfull Training

:eek: WE ARE OFFERING $200.00 FOR THIS LOGO AND IF MORE THAN 5 REVISIONS ARE NEEDED FOR A DESIGNER WE WILL KICK IN AN EXTRA $50.00. :eek:

[OffbeatDesign]

Thanks

[benitorealty]

Looks ok, please see this website for examples :) https://www.coolmilitary.com/customindex.html

[giant]

Here's from me... :)
Thank You.

[abby]

Project Update: This project is now validated.

[benitorealty]

:) very sharp Giant, much more effort went into that design, lets see if someone will beat that

[nhr]

Hello again:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b92/nhrdesign/DO_/ForeclosureSniper_nhr.png

Thank you.

[benitorealty]

;) Nice nhr, I like you taking the iniative to put the tagline you like, I like TRAINING at the end for products we sell and ACADEMY for the live course. I guess they will be interchanged. Lets see if someone can beat these two but you guys are making this decision tough.

[benitorealty]

[IMG]
an idea put the cross hairs image on the left and Text on the right- see attachment for sample, would like to see some of those and some like have been proposed already to compare

[nhr]

Thank you very much for the feedback.
As requested:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b92/nhrdesign/DO_/ForeclosureSniper2_nhr.png

[nhr]

Variation:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b92/nhrdesign/DO_/ForeclosureSniper3_nhr.png

:)

[giant]

Here's from me again... :)

[giant]

one more... :)
Thank You.

[bogglins]

hi.. a different approach.. less busy concept.. to attract serious minded non-playful prospects..
works well both on color/blackwhite large and small size for different purposes.. such low cost print/photocopy/fax/yellow pages ads
thanks.. :)

[benitorealty]

hi bogglins, thanks but will manily be using in color all the time and understand less busy but logo will by mainly used in color on the web and on the CD's, course manuals which are in color.

Even though I'm a pro 2nd amendment person some Anti Gunnners might be turned off by the picture of a rifle. I want red state and blue state people to come to my events and get my courses so maybe just leaving the cross hairs makes the point and different variations and ideas form anyone. Want to get some ideas?- check out the t-shirts at this site http://www.militaryclothing.com/IBS/SimpleCat/Shelf/ASP/Hierarchy/0606/showall/157.html

[benitorealty]

hi bogglins, thanks but will mainly be using in color all the time and understand less busy but logo will by mainly used in color on the web and on the CD's, course manuals which are in color.

Even though I'm a pro 2nd amendment person some Anti Gunnners might be turned off by the picture of a rifle. I want red state and blue state people to come to my events and get my courses so maybe just leaving the cross hairs makes the point and different variations and ideas form anyone. Want to get some ideas?- check out the t-shirts at this site http://www.militaryclothing.com/IBS/SimpleCat/Shelf/ASP/Hierarchy/0606/showall/157.html

[bogglins]

:)

[nhr]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b92/nhrdesign/DO_/ForeclosureSniper4_nhr.png

[nhr]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b92/nhrdesign/DO_/ForeclosureSniper41_nhr.png

Thank you.

[giant]

Here's from me again... :)

[LutFi]

Hello, This is Version # 1.

Dollar house, sniper cross hair, and shield.
In metal color theme.

Any comments will be appreciated. :D

Thank you.
LutFi

[LutFi]

Hi, this is Version # 2. With gold theme color.

Thank you.
LutFi :)

[benitorealty]

Hi Lutfi.... Dollar sign in the house is an EXCELLENT idea. Everyone with the the other designs thank you. I'm going to send a sample of one of those Tshirts or other military site with a color that I like to see if one of you can make something similar to it. Thanks.

[benitorealty]

fire in background looks great on this link. http://www.7point62design.com/closeouts1.html
Dollar sign in the middle of the house is great idea. Thin crossline hairs look better than thick ones.

[benitorealty]

With the last post if I can get some more variations I will start narrowing down the submitted designs to a final winner. Thanks.

[LutFi]

Version # 3. Thin crossline hairs. Combine The metal and gold color.

Thankyou.
LutFi :)

[LutFi]

Version # 4. With fire in background to reflect the 'profit spirit' :D.
Also put the ribbon below with blue color.
I still use gold tone color for the shield to reflect the whole 'profit' as goal.
Shield have mean protection. With well trainning system I want investor aware and their investment is 'protected' with their knowledge and experience during in academy.
That's all.

Any comments will be appreciated.
Thank you.
LutFi. :)

[bogglins]

here is the revision based on your explanations..

[benitorealty]

OK, LETS NARROW THIS DOWN, IF ANY OTHER DESIGNER READS THIS AND CAN IMPROVE ON THE DESIGN PLEASE SUBMIT...
MESSAGE 28 & 12 ARE IN THE RUNNING. NOW ITS JUST A MATTER OF TAKING SOME ELEMENTS AND IMPROVING ON THEM UNTIL I CAN SELECT THE WINNER. THE ROUND (GIANT) DESIGN, OR THE SHIELD (BOGGLINS) ELEMENTS IS WHAT I WANT TO SEE IMROVED TO GIVE IT MORE UUUMMMPPPHHH.

MESSAGE #12- REMOVAL OF THE RIFLE. ENLARGE IT SO I CAN SEE IT BETTER. MORE PROUNOUNCED FONT FOR THIS AND THE SHIELD- LOOK AT THE FONTS INLCUDING THE RED LETTERING WITH TRANSITIONS WITH BORDERING AND REVERSE FOR SMALLER LETTERING. http://www.7point62design.com/adult11.html ALSO GOLD LETTERS AT http://www.7point62design.com/adult10.html LOOK GOOD. COLORS INSIDE THE CIRCLE DONT EXCITE ME. PLEASE LOOK AT THOSE WEBSITES.

MESSAGE #28- SHIELD SHAPE IS GREAT JUST NEEDS UMMPHHHH. MORE DETAIL. PREFER MORE COLORS. I LIKE RED AND GOLD WITH TRANSITIONS. gold crest with dollar bill would look nice http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://estore.websitepros.com/stores/989250/catalog/Master%2520Sniper%2520Polished%2520Gold%2520150dpi .jpg&imgrefurl=http://estore.websitepros.com/989250/Categories.bok%3Fcategory%3DPins%2B%252F%2BInsigni a%253AMaster%2BSniper&h=86&w=150&sz=10&hl=en&start=44&um=1&tbnid=2yxTXqSyC2MnIM:&tbnh=55&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsniper%2Binsignia%26start%3D42%26ndsp %3D21%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4G GIC_enUS214US215%26sa%3DN

IN BOTH PLEASE INCLUDE THIN CROSS HAIRS RUNNING LIKE A CROSS OVER A HOUSE AND THE HOUSE. Thanks.

[giant]

I'll post something...
do you want still use a circle or a shield?

[bogglins]

Hi.. The effects used to make the t-shirts' designs are done in photoshop.. which means bitmap/raster.. while the logo we usually design (the standard) is in vector format (adobe illustrator/corel draw)...
So, It's good to have a vector base logo, then have the stylized logo done in photoshop using effects/filters to make it looks more 3d/realistic (just like those on the t-shirts)...

So, as for the colors.. it's not necessary to have the logo in military uniforms (bdu) colors combination, right?..

thanks!

-Pieter
:)

[bogglins]

hi.. here is the logo in raster/bitmap.. we can use effects here.. this just to show you how it looks.. i guess you're looking this style? cmiiw...
you've been referring to many sites which shows raster images.. please advise..
thanks!

-Pieter
:)

[giant]

Here's from me again... :)

[bogglins]

variation - stylized. still readable in small size for web use..

[giant]

one more... :)
Thank You.

[benitorealty]

I want to compare both, now I also understand Vector vs Raster (thanks Bogglin) and would like to know if Giant and Bogglins know how to do both? For now I would like just the Vector for this competition. Whomever wins then we can discuss Raster and if there are addtional fees that will be ok.
For the Circle I would like to see the background in "night vision green with the same color red thin cross hairs"- see Google images and type in: night vision rifle scope for examples. If you can center a small $ symbol between the cross hairs that would be great. I'm not too crazy on the way that house looks, if you can make it look more like a regular house. It will be eventually the same color as the background because its being seen through a night vision scope. I like the use of red lettering with a gold border ( see my last post ), for the circle or banner edge maybe gold would look good and the lettering in that color red with gold border. If vector is never going to look as good as Raster then please comment if you are able to do those. Thanks.

[benitorealty]

:D Hi Pieter, that is definetely the quality that I'm looking for. The shield color looks awesome, just rotate the cross hairs so they run north-south, east west. Also instead of the stars the same concept with small gold dollar signs leading to the bigger one. For the lettering I like red and gold nut have it match the shield. I hope Giant can come up with raster images because I was leaning towards that concept of the circle but this shield is awesome. I really need to see the circle post in Raster. message #32 is in the lead and I don't plan to wait until Aug 20 to approve something. I need to move fast.

[bogglins]

Hi..
Yes, we can also make the effects in vector actually, but that will be more complex than if done in raster.. There are some tools in the applications/programs to do so..
I think I've posted enough to show you my design approach/style in general for your project.. I'll do more minor revisions later if selected.
I'll also try to make your logo stylized in vector as well using effects later if required, but I'm sure you will add a little additional fund to the project as well... (just a opinion) :)

[benitorealty]

$100 has been added. Would like samples in Vector and Raster. I want to see the circle design in Vector. Giant can you do that?? If not anyone else?????? $$$$ in not an issue, I will need several sizes, formats etc and minor revisions for the winner, can add $50 to the winning bidder for those revisions. Thanks.

[bogglins]

i'll post a variation within an hour

[bogglins]

variation...
with a night vision scope aiming on the house..
all colors can be changed.. still recognizable in small size for business card, fax, etc..

[bogglins]

variation

[benitorealty]

Great.... aside from those can anyone provide me a simple design like the logo for Mr. Fortin http://www.successdoctor.com/
I know I'm going in different directions but winning designer will have more than enough work with the project I'm launching. Maybe cross hairs of a scope with a house in the background for the beginning, Foreclosure$niper tm. Thanks.

[bogglins]

hi.. my concept..
:)

btw, are you going to provide/sell marketing/training products? (ebook, cd audio)? cool..
i've been providing many ebook cover, cd, dvd, web header and buttons as well for many internet marketers/motivators.. :)

[LutFi]

Great.... aside from those can anyone provide me a simple design like the logo for Mr. Fortin http://www.successdoctor.com/
I know I'm going in different directions but winning designer will have more than enough work with the project I'm launching. Maybe cross hairs of a scope with a house in the background for the beginning, Foreclosure$niper tm. Thanks.

Hello,
This is simple design version, based on your guidelines.
Thank you.
LutFi. :)

[bogglins]

here one with the dollar sign.

[LutFi]

Another one. Version # 5 B.
Thank you
LutFi

[LutFi]

One more. Version # 5 C.

Simplified the house and add color background sample for the logo.

Thank you
LutFi. :)

[djaka]

thank you for the invitation
:)

[giant]

Here's from me again... :)

[giant]

Here's the rasterised logo you want it... :)
Thank You.

[benitorealty]

Good work, let me decide which designer I want. With the last posts it would really look cool with a light beige lettering or white and a camouflauge background. Not sure if camo is a background any of you can get. See how Michael Fortin has a white font but Grey background. Sort of like that but camo. I prefer letters close together and thick. Actually having ForeclosureSniper. with a small TM after that with the house before it, cross hairs. is fine. S in sniper a Dollar symbol.
Another Idea for Symbol is a house outline and a sniper circle within the house. Thanks.

[giant]

Here's from me again... :)

[bogglins]

hi.. here is a quick one from me.. :)
thanks!

[LutFi]

Version # 5D.
Here's the camouflauge.
Thank You.
LutFi :)

[giant]

Here's from me again... :)
Thank You.

[bogglins]

hi.. variation..

[giant]

again...thick fonts... :)
Thank You.

[djaka]

:)

[djaka]

different camou
:D

[bogglins]

flame revisited.. :)

[benitorealty]

Wow Pieter.. your showing some determination, the last design with the fire is looking good. Please retouch it with this:
1. Have fire fanning out towards the left vs up...giving the effect that we are moving into position fast from left to right, plus it would take up less space vertically.
2. instead of red for flame and Sniper check out this color (Flame orange)http://www.nava.org/NAVA%20Membership/membflag/9109.gif
or http://www.cowboyhatstore.com/images_product/401.jpg I thinn its the same as your message 46 but If you can find the darker orange let me know.
3. Foreclosure letters, TM and house outline roof in camoflauge green, not sure what the pantone is but here is a sample of that green: http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3367554/2/istockphoto_3367554_camoflauge_set.jpg
4. I think its hard to notice that little cross in the middle of the cross hairs. Not sure if changing the colors is going to make a difference.
5. Since I'm int he business of "selling money" the Dollar Sign for the S in Sniper is better like message #46.

So anyway, let me know and If you can get me that and the request on post #37 for the shield then maybe I'm ready to pick the winner. I'm not going to use the Raster a s a logo but it would be a good graphic for something else. Since I added more money like you requested then if both come back and you can give them to me in different sizes, formats that I will need for print, web, etc.... , agree to assign the copywrite, not sure if you e-mail or fax me something signed, then I'm ready to make a decision.

[bogglins]

Hi.. Thanks for your message.. I'm quite busy at the moment with a number of direct orders/projects on hand.. but for sure I'll let you see revision today..
I do really interested with your logo project as you can see here my efforts/times spent just to find what you want.. :)

Thanks! Will be back to you later today..

-Pieter
:)

[bogglins]

hi.. here is a revision.. i skipped my lunch time... 'coz too excited :D

[bogglins]

Hi.. do you need something else?..
...for your question regarding the message #37, turning the cross hair and changing color is easy to do.. I could do that later if the design were chosen.. at least the general design idea were shown already for now..
Anyway, just let me know what else I could do for you..

-Pieter
:)

[benitorealty]

Hi Pieter,

Faster I get what I want, faster I pick a winner, I want it as close to what I want as possbile and at this point ...you are almost the winner if you can get me what I want. I was favoring Giant but it seems like you know how to do the raster stuff like I want and you have been putting in some serious effort. Get me what I need below AND the modified raster image that you said is easy to do from my last post. I'm getting tired of looking at these posts and want to get it over with. Make sure you cover every point below and every point from the raster request. :eek:

The flame looks great... but I need to see the letters in the color I requested in the last post not silver. Same thing for the house. The cross hairs in the house are barely visible. I don't want them made thicker. Not sure when you change color if its going to get better. If it doesnt maybe taking out that tiny cross from the center and leaving the thin lines will work. I also don't want an extra color for the circle and crosshairs. Should match the Army Green color.

Not sure if you have a camo background like post #55 to show me the letters Foreclosure in a Kaki lets say since now you have a dark background.

If there is a light background then exclude the border around the letters because it just makes them look too close together.

Orange for Sniper with no transition- Solid Flame Orange. TM placed in the same color as Foreclosure.

Tagline- font, italics stay the same. Color is the same as Foreclosure. Change it to have it say: Precision Profits Training

[bogglins]

Hi,
Is this camo version correct?

[bogglins]

another one.. cmyk color mode will be used when printed..

[benitorealty]

ALMOST-(these changes apply to post 69, your last post)
4 Images,

ARMY GREEN
1. a little bit darker orange for Sniper
2. Foreclosure, Precision Profits Training, TM, and inside the circle in Army Green- (example) http://www.thechestore.com/prodimages/headwear/GFMH-large.jpg
3. the circle/flame is just too big when it comes to the overall logo. My thoughts is it should be as big as the Text next to it from top to bottom so it doesn't draw all the attention away from the letters ForeclosureSniper, Precision Profits Training


KHAKI
AFTER THAT I want to see the camoflauge in the background of the letters and flame circle. (behind it). The camoflauge pattern you used is good. The problem you will have with the ARMY green fonts and green in the circle is they wont stand out because of the dark background..... so change them to khaki (example) http://www.fairviewministries.net/files/Other%20Files%20-%20School/Dennis%20Uniform%20Colors/Dennis%20Khaki.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaki_%28color%29#Khaki.

BLACK AND WHITE
self explanatory

RASTER
the shield, the changes I asked you for in #62

[bogglins]

Hi,

Here the image.. as requested.. :confused:

[bogglins]

the shield proposal revised as requested..

[benitorealty]

Hi Pieter,

I thought I was almost done, sent the logos to a few friends and everybody had something bad to say about it. I revised the fonts because people mentioned that fonts didn't look military. I have attached the fonts I finally selected after looking through dozens of them. Please use the same orange and the color in the attached jpeg. I want the tagline to be as close to the Main Text as possible. Please also change the green inside the circle to the Pantone 5777C. Thanks and we are almost done.

P.S.- After I get the revision please explain what formats, resolutions you will deliver these to me after I close the contest, and what paperwork you send me assigning the copywrite, etc.

[bogglins]

Hi..
Which design proposal did you mean?.. ..to be revised?..

Well, I just picked this first to match your attachment.. is this correct?..

..I usually print the copyright transfer form, sign it and scan it back.. then send to the client..
-regarding the file format, usually here at DesignOutpost we send the client the original vector file to the client; or the .psd (photoshop) 300 dpi. It depends on which file format you prefer.
The vector file (adobe illustrator or coreldraw) will be the solid color version (pantone) and black and white version.

[benitorealty]

Hi Pieter,

Font and spacing is perfect. Not sure what it is with the circle around the house but it looks weird. Can you take out the border around the edges to see if it looks more circular? Like this : http://www.absoluteplaystation.com/gp2a/silent_scope_2_lr_1.jpg
Also without the light effect- just plain like the fonts. Also please send me a sample with the Pantone color changes throughout the logo to CMYK 75, 65, 100, 30 to see how it looks in that color. Thanks.

[bogglins]

Hi.. I cannot open the link (absoluteplaystation.com).. ..to see the picutre.. seems that for member only..

[BlueCherryGraphics]

Hi,

Have you selected Pieter as the designer you want to work with?

If so, I will move this to the Revisions Forum so you two can finish up any changes.

If not, I will leave the thread here open to other designers.

Thanks! :)

[benitorealty]

Yes, he is selected as long as I get the logo in the last post, raster image, copywrite paperwork and different file formats for web, print. Pieter... just make the ring a liitle thinner, take out border around rings and revise colors with the ones in the last post. Thanks.

[bogglins]

i'll send the revision tonight around 10pm.. (my time) here is now 5:06 pm

thanks!
:)

[bogglins]

here it is.. :)

[bogglins]

the number "a" is without + in the middle

[benitorealty]

Hi Pieter,

Please give me A and D so I can use either one with a light or dark background. Please change A to have the little plus sign in the house like D. Also would like the Raster Image (both the revised one and the first one you made of the shield. So whatever format I need to have them for low and high resolution web and print. Also the copywrite paperwork. Congrats and thank you for the patience and hard work. How do you post a winner to close it out????

[benitorealty]

Pieter... almost forgot, 2 more... black and white and the flame with the red, yellow border around it. Thanks.

[bogglins]

Hi.. to announce the winner is simple.. just post a message on the board that a designer has been chosen and a design/logo has been picked (show the message/design number).. and then you can ask for revision to the chosen concept when required...
thanks!

-Pieter
:)

[benitorealty]

Will you be able to give me the items in my last two posts with the revisions?

[bogglins]

hi. here is the revision.. and the black & white version..

[bogglins]

hi.. did you mean this as the "flame with red, yellow border" version?

[benitorealty]

Yes, thats fine but just the circle thinner.
YOU HAVE ONE THE CONTEST. PLEASE MOVE TO REVISION FORUM. THANKS.

[Fabian]

Congrats:)

This project has been moved to revisions, client could you please post a quick note once your files are received.

Thanks
Fabian
DO Moderator

[bogglins]

revision.. thinner circle..

[benitorealty]

Hi Pieter,
That looks great. If I can have the same thing with the green color please post. So for now please send that and files a-2, d, c(b&w), Flame?, and raster image (the 1st one you made) with copywrite paperwork. Thanks.

[bogglins]

Hi.. Ok.. I'll prepare you the files.. need to clean up the them first.. Will send you that later tonight (my time) or tomorrow first thing in the morning.. Thanks!

ps: btw, the raster image <- did you mean the other logo concept?.. the shield?.. Ok then, I'll let you have this design.. I'll send you that as it is.. the actual size I originally created the file.. enjoy! :)

[bogglins]

hi.. here is the snapshot of final image...

[bogglins]

files sent! :)

[benitorealty]

FILES HAVE BEEN RECEIVED WITH COPYWRITE NOTICE, PIETER IS THE MAN, DESIGN OUTPOST IS AWESOME, I HAVE REFERRED THIS SITE TO FRIENDS. THANKS. :D

HENRY BENITO
WWW.FORECLOSURESNIPER.COM

[BlueCherryGraphics]

PROJECT UPDATE: This thread has been moved to Logo Project Archives.