Definition of a template

[Palmer]

There has been some confusion as to what a template is and what you will receive from the winning designer. To end all confusion we have changed the wording of the description in the template contest forum. The words changed have been put in bold...

A template is an html skeleton of your Web site. It consists of 1 or 2 web pages. Contest winners will provide the template coded in html, all graphics used, and any other necessary files. All entries will be in graphic form and then converted if it is chosen as the winner.

In other words, a template is not an entire web site. If you need additional pages , you may negotiate with the winning designer to have them design those for you also but at an addtional fee.

That also goes for a Flash splash page, you should hold a separate contest for that in the Elements contest forum.

Feel free to ask any question in this thread or by sending me a private message.

Thank you.

[imageconstrux]

Thanks for the clarification - I was wondering that a bit myself. Actually, I'm happy that you get the HTML - I thought I'd just get a big PDF and a 'good luck'.

I'm trying to decide whether to run a contest for our Stonehenge site this off-season, so this is good info to have.

Thx

[designmarket]

What sort of standards should contest holders expect designers to adhere to?

Should the html be cross browser compatible? should it live up to w3c standards?

Would the code be *clean*?

I ask because it has been my experience to encounter designers that do not consider these basic user friendly elements in their design in the past.

[Palmer]

Excellent questions. As all of the designers are different and do things various ways, there is no set answer to those questions. From my experience though, most of the template designers use Photoshop or Dreamweaver to splice up their templates after they are chosen as the winner.

Will the code that these programs produce adhere to the strict standards of the W3C, probably not.

Will it look the same in IE 6 as it does in Netscape 4.7? Does anything?

Will it be a little bloated as opposed to a hand coded template? Most likely.

I do know that the designers take great pride in their work and delivering exactly what the contest holder asks for. If you want it to display properly in Netscape 4.7 then they will design something simple enough to make that possible. If there are ever any problems with things not looking right, we have team of experts here that will be able to help. :)

You'll notice that the template contests and logo contests have different designers entering them. They enter the contests where their skills are the strongest. There are some designers that are great at logos but do not know the first thing about html. They do not enter the template contests for that reason. They know that the last thing we want here is an unhappy client.

[lang]

Just to add to what Palmer said, most of the templates you'll find here conform to the general needs of an average website. As a contest holder, if it's important for you for your template to be compatible with a certain browser or other technology, please remember to stress that in your opening post. Rest assured that you will get exactly what you need.

If in doubt, always ask first and it'll be smooth sailing. :)

[hotnuts21]

We offer a service where we can turn any design or html page into sctict W3c compliant Css and XHTML.

Palmer if you want to sort something out let me know, maybe you could offer it to clients and designers? The designers would only then have to product the design send it to us and have it coded. The designer doing less work could pay us from his winnings or have it as an added extra during sign up?

Just some thoughts

[designmarket]

It's not a bad thought as a service to designers and contest holders that understand the reasons for standards etc.

Do you do bobby approved as well :)

We have always tried to meet current standards with our work but as time goes on some things have to be compromised on, that has to be expected. 100% compliance cross browser / accesibility / validation is a great goal but we find that sometimes we cannot meet it in all cases with the way we want the aesthetics to be.

LOL, after 4-5 years of lovingly handcoding every site we have only just begun to use CSS because we feel it is now more widely accepted. :lol:

{adding} Palmer, sorry I think I am hijacking your "what is a template" thread!

[motiveX]

Thank GOD...let's just hope it actually works.

Nothing like winning a TEMPLATE contest, then ending up doing a 7-10 page site for a contest holder for well under 1K, then not even getting thanked for your work by that person...

:angry: :furious: :tdown: :crying:

[hotnuts21]

Palmer, are you interested in offering the CSS/XHTML to your design team and clients? I can give you a set price, basically you could let your designers use the service at cost and your clients/customers you can charge what you want!

We can take a PSD, Jpg or similar and turn it into a full css/xhtml template for you, saving the designers time maybe?

Let me know :D

[designmarket]

Just bumbing this as I do think this would be a very handy service.. personally we are having to re-code everything no matter what we might say.. well yah granted have only run a couple of template competitions.. but the extra couple of days to recode it that we have to do is a load on us and a waste really of our chosen designers time to go through the motions of it in the first place :)

[Palmer]

Saying you're "having to re-code everything" is not going to look real good to all the other contest holders who don't know the first thing about html. It also makes it sound like or template designers do not know what they are doing which I take great offense at.

I personally have checked every template that has been converted to html for the past few weeks before paying the designer and they have all been displaying properly in the major browsers.

Are you meaning you are having to convert it to xhtml? I don't understand why you can't simply offer less and only ask for a .psd and then have Paul convert it to xhtml or you do it yourself? I'm not seeing a demand for this service from any other contest holders.

[designmarket]

Oh dear.. I certainly didn't wish to offend anyone at all .. I am so sorry if I have.. no.. what I mean is that IF a contest holder requires strict compliance to standards and cross browser compatibility the service offered sounded good, and I was wondering if anything had progressed on that score. It would be invaluable for designers in enabling them to enter strict compliance requirement comps etc.

I will certainly follow through on this privately and not intrude with my thoughts in the matter again. I know that the quality control standards here in these forums are very good Palmer... anyone coming here for a template can rest assured that they will have a quality outcome..

Please forgive me - the sort of thing we do is ridiculously antiquated ok? Almost totally meaningless and not necessary for the successful outcome of most web presences. :(

[Palmer]

Ok, thanks for clarifying what you meant. No offense taken then :)

[hheine]

:wub: You two... being born to each other... :P

Positioning.

We can do a great artwork, with lots of curves, spaces, images and photos and freaky symbols. But it´s important to think in coding AT the creative process, not after that. Some designers take it NOT as a primary concern(no references to D.O.) :D .

Doing so, they are getting into trouble about POSITIONING. (Ironically they kind of like it :rip: It´s like a challenge for them. ) Positioning is THE real art. It´s about X, Y or Z (css) and load balancing. I´m absolutely convinced that design-market is worried about that. :blink:

To be W3C compliant is not the fundamental question.

Do you all know that relative positioning with CSS does not go well with different browsers ? So, brows, WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT !!! The great designer generated a beautiful template, programmed in a wonderful W3C compliant code, to after that have a client throwing out their lungs, saying that his netscape, opera, ie ...... does not show their content in the right way ? Very good. <_<

Another great example is dynamic content. If you have a CMS and wants to fit that
great template into it, YOU DO NOT need a designer to be doing that for you, because he is already showing the final result of what the compiler must generate. So call a programmer or hire someone who knows both. :brow:

Tomorrow (in a couple of months) you will see pros in matrix of variables generating multipage sites and sessioning.
And the programmers ?
They will be doing less boring stuff.

When designers came to the @ world, they dived into a strange new world, forcing them to put limits to their creativity. Oppose to that, the @ was forcing them to buy new pants with great big pockets and nice wallets. Not that bad...

But there was a lack of standards and cross browser functionality, and even today that is sucking OUR time, because Gates wants (and he is) rulling this particular world and blá blá blá....(oh do you have explorer for mac, sorry :huh: , they are planning it for linux too :tdown: ).

Palmer (not being a brownosing suck-up) makes that checks because he felt responsable for the work done by his Team. More than anyone, he wants to preserve this place, to be a satisfing client machine. The show must go on.

Final word.

Hotnuts clever words:


Palmer, are you interested in offering the CSS/XHTML to your design team and clients? I can give you a set price, basically you could let your designers use the service at cost and your clients/customers you can charge what you want!

We can take a PSD, Jpg or similar and turn it into a full css/xhtml template for you, saving the designers time maybe?

Let me know


There are a lot of methods to code a page W3C compliant. But there is only one method to satisfy your client. What do you prefer ?

Henrique.

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-hotnuts21+Oct 12 2003, 06:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hotnuts21 @ Oct 12 2003, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Palmer, are you interested in offering the CSS/XHTML to your design team and clients? I can give you a set price, basically you could let your designers use the service at cost and your clients/customers you can charge what you want!

We can take a PSD, Jpg or similar and turn it into a full css/xhtml template for you, saving the designers time maybe?

Let me know :D [/b][/quote]
At the end of the day I think if a this is a MAJOR issue for a contest holder they should state it from the get go and offer more money for that type of work to be included within their template contest.

I don't think you can begin to expect it to be the norm from any designer.

As others have said, that is why there are programmers and there are designers. Some of us can do both, others specialize in one area, not the other...or visa versa.

Money talks and I am sure if you wanted to be quite sure that things were coded to your specs, then you should front the dinero for that expectation of delivery.

:tup:

[designmarket]

OK.. here seems like a likely place to post..
ok given that a template is what it is.. a 1-2 page shell sliced and ready to work a site into ..

given that if someone wants more.. I.e. complience etc etc etc..

What do I do if I just want only a PSD file with no html provided?

Is it a template? I don't think so... I think it is a graphic that is ready to work with but it's not a template..

SO.. in reseller forum where template minimum is X$s should I post a request for a graphic web layout as a template or a "misc... other" item????????

The only requirement is the provision of the layout in graphical form.

[Palmer]

I consider anything that eventually will be a web page, a template. On the other hand since the coding is not required it wouldn't be fair to make you required to offer the minimum. However if you post you contest in the Miscellaneous forum the template designers will never see it. Sounds like a conundrum :lol:

How about minimum prize for a non-sliced template in the reseller forum to be set at $200. Is that good?

[designmarket]

Now now.. I thought with the conversion rate I pay here.. $180 - 185 would be great for the ones I have in mind.. the price break is making it so I cannot do contest - I loose out big time so and have to do it myself.. so.. I don't know

if the price break was lower I would have had about 4 go through since I've started here.

It's a toughie! but I've got all these jolly non profits & small ones.. etc. I cannot complain on the minimum price for the value, it's undisputed.

but I'd rather offer the work to the designers and help them get something than keep the available work to myself..

The one I am thinking of I already have paid out x $ for logo here and just want a simple web look created.. around it.

I'm not demanding, just trying to way up which way to go.. do it myself.. because I am free.. hahha. or throw it in here so someone can make a $

[Palmer]

So lets make it $185 then.

Not demanding?!?!?! Hah! :lol2:

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-design-market+Nov 19 2003, 12:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (design-market @ Nov 19 2003, 12:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->

I'm not demanding, just trying to way up which way to go.. do it myself.. because I am free.. hahha. or throw it in here so someone can make a $ [/b][/quote]
Personally I think that is a fine line. I personally have never worked with you, but I know that there are contest holders who can get VERY detailed, to the point that it sometimes is not even worth the contest prize money after the fact.

I have dealt with a few cases where I was paid, then the contest holder became a controlling maniac who basically wanted everything changed and the craziest stuff to meet their specs.

If you can guarantee that you would not be as demanding for just a .PSD I think anything within that > or < $200 range would be more than reasonable.

In saying this, I sometimes feel that there should be a clause involved with us designers. If at any time the contest holder (after the contest has closed of course) begins asking for work above and beyond the scope of the agreement that we should be allowed to begin billing at our normal outside rates. If that was understood, I am sure it would make most contest holders make sure they nail everything down from the get-go.

None of that was aimed at you since you seem to be a very helpful and passionate contest holder, but I know for a fact there are a few out there who have blantantly taken advantage of a few of us; from that standpoint I would be a bit worried about a simple .PSD file becoming a crazed quest for perfection after the fact.

I don't know if any of that makes sense since I just woke up...



:huh:

[designmarket]

well good morning bunny..
yes I understand.. no, it would have to be sign off on presented.. almost more like a logo contest, I think. If extra work was required it should be stated as part of any requirement and therefore more $ put up for it OR charged as an extra to be agreed on between the contest holder and the designer.

OK.. stand by all for a couple coming your way.. I just have to find the time to post them..

thanks for listening!

errmm. so they go in misc? or template? I don't think they be template per our definition which is the subject I threw the curve ball at! :lol:

[Palmer]

Yeah, post it in the template forum if you want anyone to enter :D

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-design-market+Nov 19 2003, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (design-market @ Nov 19 2003, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If extra work was required it should be stated as part of any requirement and therefore more $ put up for it OR charged as an extra to be agreed on between the contest holder and the designer.
[/b][/quote]
Exactly.

:tup:

[hheine]

I don´t see any problems with coding. What´s the point ? I´m a webdesigner. Every single client that I had, asked for something more... If a contest h. is not being fair violating contest rules, call Palmer. He´s responsable for that. If someone can´t do a template, go for logos... It´s that simple ? Is that a little ditzy ? <_<

[PancakeMail]

I was *just* in the process of writing up a contest for a template when I read this post (good thing I caught this first)

I see that the contest is for "one or two pages", which I understand. Question I have is this:

Since I need a total of 3 layouts for the same site, and therefore the layouts should all have the same "feel", is it more appropriate to boost the $$ and have one contest, or divide the $$ and have two or three contests?

We'll wait for some guidance before posting the layout contest... :unsure:

[Michael]

<!--QuoteBegin-PancakeMail+Nov 20 2003, 11:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PancakeMail @ Nov 20 2003, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since I need a total of 3 layouts for the same site, and therefore the layouts should all have the same "feel", is it more appropriate to boost the $$ and have one contest, or divide the $$ and have two or three contests?

[/b][/quote]
Hi,

I think boosting the $$ would be the best option and state that you require 3 pages.

Hope that helps :)



Michael

[hheine]

Since I need a total of 3 layouts for the same site, and therefore the layouts should all have the same "feel", is it more appropriate to boost the $$ and have one contest, or divide the $$ and have two or three contests?


Hi,

I think boosting the $$ would be the best option and state that you require 3 pages.

Hope that helps

Great. :tup: