Vodoo Is a Religion

[rlevant]

Greetings friends

I was impelled to make a post given the very public way in which the Voodoo thread is promoting racist and offensive and simply wrong ideas about a faith which I know intimately to be both powerful and wonderful reverent and ethical.

And a faith and a people who have suffered greatly because of the persecution of their religion by such ignorance which has become seen as just good plain fun.

There was a time where ciertain practices of other faiths and their people were seen as evil.

Many are sensitive to how Jewish People ave been treated. If someone wanted a logo of "The Jews" crucifying jesus and portrayng their faith as one of a distant and angry God who had nt compassion...at least 1/2 of those reading this would be very upset

And the others , while they may or may not agree...would recognize that a public forum is not the place for that sort of offensive or religious demeaning or racist or anti-semetic material.


Most of you know only what you have seen on TV about the Great religion of Voudoun. These attacks have become so popular that Voudoun becomes seen primarily in terms of "zombies" BOY do they not get what is true!

And malignant magic again those who are against ones interest through curses and pins on vodoo dolls.

This is against the religion but it also has been used to promote racism against Black people especially in the south.


These images have perpetuated oppression for African religions in general (Dali Lama has even spoken out against this tendency as a Tibetian he is often more sensitive to cultural issues than many others:))

As a Priest of an African Religion..I need to state this publically to continue to participate here.

As my post was removed from the contest I need to state it here..in public..as the comments about Vodoun are well over the line of offensive and demeaning of a religious faith.


I want to assure you that I will not (beyond my post) disrupt things in the Voodoo forum.

You do not know me well and I can imagine you may be a little nervous about it.

What I want to suggest here to you though is that this will not be the last time such an issue comes up.

Suppose a Nazi site wants a logo? Will your artists do it?

Suppose they want a Jew with big nose and a lot of money for a financial site.....

Would Design Outpost feel that would simple be up to the client and say nothing?


While I happen to be personally a part of two groups which our culture seems to feel insults are fair game...(African Religion and Arab) this issue WILL come up on other things apart from the acceptible two:)


And while I will not leave over it. I can assure you if comes up one of those issues where there is greater awareness...such as Judaism (which is not to say ther is no anti-semitism--just more people who are sensitive to such issues)


You will be faced with loosing the clients who want the anti-semetic portrals..or those offended by it. And either you wil have a really clear policy on these things..one way or the other and be ready to state it ..

Or when it is something where there will be more people more directly concerned you will end up with weirdness on the forums. Thus regardless of your position I woud strongy suggest you have Design depot take a position on these sorts of matters. Remember too unlike a private studio..you do this in public

My view is that gives greater social responsibility to the artists and even more to the administration.

The decision is yours, and as I said I do not intend to be a problem here around this matter. I do need to bring it to your attention...All of your attention

These forums are not like a private office. There is a social responsibility

And if I am again not permitted to post this. I will need to leave.

I hope that will not be the case.

Best

Rev Renee Levant
founder and Wehemu
Per Ankh

[Palmer]

You have every right to post your views. I am not censoring what you have said. In fact I wanted the designers to see your message so I moved it to their forum. It is our policy and always has been that the contest forums are for the contest holder of that contest and the designers to post in.

I would of done the same thing if someone posted in one of your contest threads.

I apologize for you being offended. Obviously that was not the intention of anyone here nor was it meant to be taken by you that we were keeping you from voicing your knowledge on this and educating all of us.

[Eagle]

*
Hello Renee, :)

To answer your question about whether an artist would do a logo for a Nazi site. Well, I'm sure that would depend on whether the logo and/or site was promoting racist ideals...

Not all National Socialists are racists; the term is wildly misrepresented much like the symbol of the Swastika is still maligned and misunderstood even in these 'enlightened' times. I'm sure you are aware of this.

See: http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/ and http://www.gentleswastika.com

<img src='http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/krishna.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

I understand your concerns but I (personally) don't think the stereotyping of a religion in this case could be deemed as deliberately offensive. Advertising, since methods began, has always and must always (to be successful) capitalise on the masses' pre-conceptions of a theme; be it food, opera, hunting, or religion for that matter. Ok, I concede that advertisers and artists should also have a social responsibility into changing these pre-conceptions but this process usually takes a very long time. In the meanwhile, they have mouths to feed and bills to pay! - and that is human nature. :)

I certainly don't think that an image of a 'voodoo' type shaman or similar is going to perpetuate oppression of African religions. I have spent a fair amount of time in Africa and I thought nothing about any religion - only about whom I met and their personalities and attitudes towards me (which was very good!).

But I guess I'm enlightened... :blink: :unsure: :)

Interesting topic! :) :) :)
*
[edit] To illustrate a point, I'm constantly asked why I have a "Nazi" Eagle as my symbol....it isn't, the design was based on a North American Indian eagle - the only similarity between mine and a Nazi Eagle is the wing tips!!! B)

Stare at it long enough and it'll wink at you! ;)

[designmarket]

I agree - there are a great many things that are presented in advertising because they are culturally understood.. not for their true & correct meaning always, but to reach a target market. The youth culture is a notorious marketplace for throwing concepts that are *sick* = *cool* easily recognised and yet totally going to upset many many people - parents that hold different values, etc. etc. etc.

The world is like that, vast in it's contours. I think DO is doing a great job of creating the type of environment where we can all just "get along".. I don't agree with a lot of core concepts behind the requests and don't always agree with what I see from designers.. BUT.. one thing I am sure of is that there is no intension for offense at a people group or religion outside the norm.

If I don't like the flavour of a competition, I would just not view it and let admin work things out. I am assuming that designers would hold their own ethical stance as to who and what subject they work with. That is an individual question.

A private word of expression of feelings would probably help me if I felt something in particular was hurting DO overall or was really not feeling right. IE - noticed copyright infringment etc.

Quite frankly I think that we could all go shoot the designer that dared put together the Rusty label or designs playboy bunny logos for kids cloths.. is it the designer to blame?? I don't think so.

[WildCard]

First off, I was amazed that you, Renee had posted what you did in that thread. I am not sure if you are deeply into the internet community unwritten rules thing, but what you did was called "thread crapping". It's the hijacking of a thread. Had Palmer not stripped your post from it, it would have made a paying customer feel any number of not-good-feeling feelings, would have made designers retract their designs, customer would not get the same level of service that you have gotten on many of your contests.

You can't pull stunts like that! This is not a public forum and freedom of speech rules don't exist, unless the owner issues those rights.

I honestly am not sure if I what you have to say about voodoo. That doesn't matter. You took over a thread of a paying customer and are now sabre rattling threatening to take your business elsewhere if your point of view isn't respected.

As a 'priest' that is aware that media has portrayed this voodoo religion in a bad light and created myths about it, you should be more tolerant about people ignorant to facts that you say are true. It probably would have made people like more willing to consider that the facts you bring up are potentially true.

-WC-

[rlevant]

Hi folks,

In reading this thread there are three issues. I have found taking these one at a time very helpful in this sort of discussion of art, ethics and advertising when the question of whether an ad's portrayal of some person or social groups has ethical import.

1. The first is whether the ad does actually misrepresent, belittle or negatively sterotype the person or social group.

As Eagle points out ..advertising_does_ use sterotypes as a shorthand to make a point.
So in looking at this we are not yet talking about ethics..but merely discussing in what way the ad represents or misrepresents the subject matter.

2. Having really understood #1, the second question to ask is the effect or potential effect of these portrayals.

This consideration includes

Whether related portrayals have resulted in negativity towards the social group or person portrayed in the past and whether it is likely to be hurtful or harmful in the present

3. The third then is to ask about responsibility for any problems that may arise as a result of this ad

This was the focus of Design Markets discussion

4. Having considered the first three-- the last is the question of appropriate responses
who has responsibility to respond and in what manner

This was were posts in Wildcard's post would be relevant.


Of course without a full understanding of any concerns around #1 the other issues make no sense. And the answer to #2 would, most often be all too abruptly be..no harm done by those who lack knowledge of any harm...and "Stop the Harm" by anyone who has experienced harm as a result ....

Going from there directly to 3 or 4 doesn't work well or foster any sort of understanding in the particular case. It is possible totalk about where responsibility for ethics lies in general and this discussion is actually happening all over the world in associations, companies, ethics books and classrooms and individuals.

A number of governments work closely with associates to ensure advertisers follow a clear code of ethics which includes NOT sterotyping racial, sexual or religious or other groups for the sake of profit.

They argue that advertising does not only draw on whatis there and present a mirror to society..but actiively particpates in influencing and creating that culture. They argue that it is a two way street.

In additions to these points the growth internet has raised very big issues around what "public" and "private" mean.

For a common example consider online journals. Many feel their publically accessibly online journals are "just their private writing". There have been discussions and court battles over things said in these journals about individuals company or groups.

Those of us who do site placement work know how powerful an advertising tool online journals can be. In fact, studies have shown that it is a major way of reaching the largest numbers of people.

While I know many freelance folks prefer not to have some external code to live up to outside their own personal values...I do not believe this will be viable in the long term with the current rate of growth and how public some of their work is now due to the internet.

For these reasons, Palmer and Design Outpost would be really smart (and IMO ethical) given the public nature of its contests, to set out a few principles similar to which designers and contest holders would agree before accepting designers or clients.

The Australian Advertisaing Standards Bureau lays these out well..let me post them here:

SECTION 2

2.1 Advertisements shall not portray people or depict material in a way, which discriminates against or vilifies a person or section of the community on account of race, ethnicity, nationality, sex, age, sexual preference, religion, disability or political belief.
2.2 Advertisements shall not present or portray violence unless it is justifiable in the context of the product or service advertised.
2.3 Advertisements shall treat sex, sexuality and nudity with sensitivity to the relevant audience and, where appropriate, the relevant programme time zone.
2.4 Advertisements for any product which is meant to be used by or purchased by children shall not contain anything which is likely to cause alarm or distress to those children.
2.5 Advertisements shall only use language which is appropriate in the circumstances and strong or obscene language shall be avoided.
2.6 Advertisements shall not depict material contrary to prevailing community standards on health and safety.


This may reduce a *few* logo and other sales here. (but not many)

And it may require a few of the artists to do something different than they would otherwise to cionform to these policies.

But this would be a very minimal restriction. As it is pornography is not permitted so it is not as if there are NO restrictions at this time. It is possible that some of the artists may participate in porn outside design Outpost. They simply do not do so here.

I also suspect that such a code of ethics would result in your gaining some clients :)

And yes , I would suggest that 2.1 would unambiguously cover the contest which includes from client and artists portrayng Vodoun Clergy as wild eyed zombies with pins and white women running in fear of Voodoo

Best

Rev Renee Levant
Founder Wehemu
Per-Ankh:
The Kemetic Traditional Religion

[WildCard]

Interesting post, well written.

I hate to reciprocate with a much smaller, probably less-well-written one, but I must.

1) What or who elected you into a position to try to guilt a very good system/website into changing their policies? Sure, your $$'s are effective levers in trying to get your way, but maybe you need to put a little more trust in the fact that it seems that Palmer and crew are very ethical honest people. I have been working with a professional log outfit, and am impressed with the cooperation, consideration, integrity among all.

2) Logos and websites aren't exact reality. If it was, the guy would have a company name of "Joe's Surfboards" and his logo would be of a plain surfboard. Yawn.

But his name is Voodoo something or another, which leads me to feel his message is that his boards have some magical advantage to them or that the rider will be immune to 'jinxes'. It's cute. I like it. Given the fun people have been having making logos, I think they like it too. Sure, a Voudun priest in Africa might not be so inclined to buy a surfboard from the contest holder, but I really don't believe that African priests are in the aimed at demographics of their company!

3) Besides, you keep talking about Voudun priests, but he's depicting Voodoo priests; which for all I know are the voodoo curse weirdos in Haiti or Louisiana. Maybe you are protecting the wrong group for nothing.

You know, I have been drawing up two contests to be submitted in the next week to see what the results are compared to what my pro does. I am betting that this site tears their logo to shreds. I want to do that asap so that Palmer knows that he's not going to lose business due to making it policy that 'no use of stereotypes'.

I believe that most of us here are marketters here in one way or another - you have to be realistic to what you are preaching!

-WC-

[rlevant]

esides, you keep talking about Voudun priests, but he's depicting Voodoo priests; which for all I know are the voodoo curse weirdos in Haiti or Louisiana. Maybe you are protecting the wrong group for nothing.>>

Hello Wildcard

Let me clarify for you then just how the terms are used.

Vodoo is a mispelling and mispronunciation of the name of this religion.

Vodoun is a syncretic religion which comes from the encounter between African Traditional Religions..and Catholicism.

Many people who practice the religion and especially African Americans in the South often use the term Hodoo or Hoodo and less often Vodoo or Voodo.

And many of these folks live in the US and are in fact members of this target audience.

IN fact there are more practitioners of Voudon in the US than there are of Judaism :)

However yes we have different ethics here:..

The popularity of a racist or negative sterotype and is ability to promote a business does not make it right or ethical. Nor is it ethically neutral.

What gives me the right to make these posts
**Laughs**

Well in your terms the right to post here is based on Palmers permission..read his post above..he grants it.

In my terms several things, first and foremost that I am a human being, one with great deal of knowledge of African and African based religions both from experience and scholarship about both the religion and the effect of such negatve sterotypng on the lives of practitioners.

Second that I am a Priest with particular responsibility to my community and its welfare

Third that I am a us citizen and a world citizen who lives with and is personally affected by he effects of these choices..as is every member of the consuming public and their children who have to see this stuff

and finally, Forth, that I am a member of this community for which I have a lot of respect and have given a lot of support (including promotion and advertising among my base and any where I am present)

Best

Rev Renee Levant
Founder, Wehemu
Per Ankh
The Kemetic Traditional Religion

[WildCard]

Fair enough, friend. I don't want to keep this going any longer, it's not fair to the board.

As a favor though, I would love to see one respectable source for this statement:
IN fact there are more practitioners of Voudon in the US than there are of Judaism

Thank you-
-WC-

[rlevant]

Of course if you no longer care to continue the discussion that is well within your rights

I would be more interested in hearing comments about designers responsibilities for social effects of their art;-)

And do want this thread to continue but on the topic of streroytypes and advertising in general..and in particular whether pins in vodoo dolls and white women running from witch doctors are acceptible sterotypes in the eyes of this community?

I would be glad to correspond with you on the other points of interest Wildcard..but I don't feel I need to go track down article and source for you for a point that is rather marginal to the very real concerns being raised by all in this thread. I could probably put my hand on the material about the number of practitioners of African religions worldwide faster (I was reading some related material only a few weeks ago)

I can assure you that I ony gather my information from academically acceptible sources.. not any popular writing or small religious groups press;-)

(I can also asure you that academic sources can also be weird --though on this sort of matter it is less likely (remember how small the jewish population is after all..the claim is hardly that extreme a claim;-))

Best

[designmarket]

Surely it is up to the contest holder to choose the logo that he/she feels is most appropriate for their market. I didn't see anywhere the meaning behind the designer's art symbolising your exact interpretation of things.

[rlevant]

Hi there

Notice thee are two issues in what you suggest:


1. Surely it is up to the contest holder to choose the logo that he/she feels is most appropriate for their market

Do you really believe that across the board. If you do what makes it reasonable-- or actually is it reasonable in your view-- to not permit pornography here?


This would also seem to imply that market value is the only criteria that should matter. And that the designer has no responsibility in terms of the social impact of the work they design

Would you say the same if the issue were degrading sterotypes of women? of black people, of jewish faith?



2. I didn't see anywhere the meaning behind the designer's art symbolising your exact interpretation of things.

What specifically did you not see, in which logo?


Best

Rev Renee

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-rlevant+Nov 17 2003, 07:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rlevant @ Nov 17 2003, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What gives me the right to make these posts
**Laughs**

Well in your terms the right to post here is based on Palmers permission..read his post above..he grants it.

In my terms several things, first and foremost that I am a human being, one with great deal of knowledge of African and African based religions both from experience and scholarship about both the religion and the effect of such negatve sterotypng on the lives of practitioners.

Second that I am a Priest with particular responsibility to my community and its welfare

Third that I am a us citizen and a world citizen who lives with&nbsp; and is personally affected by he effects of&nbsp; these choices..as is every member of the consuming public and their children who have to see this stuff&nbsp;

and finally, Forth, that I am a member of this community for which I have a lot of respect and have given a lot of support (including promotion and advertising among my base and any where I am present)

Best

Rev Renee Levant
Founder, Wehemu
Per Ankh
The Kemetic Traditional Religion [/b][/quote]
What gives me the right to make these posts
**Laughs**

[Admin edit]Personal defamatory observation removed[/edit]

In my terms several things, first and foremost that I am a human being, one with great deal of knowledge of African and African based religions both from experience and scholarship about both the religion and the effect of such negatve sterotypng on the lives of practitioners.

Second that I am a Priest with particular responsibility to my community and its welfare

What does that have to do with anything? I just took the time to go through this whole thing and read it...and to be honest, you are simply throwing information around at people and trying to confuse us into agreeing with you. At the end of the day, this is not your site or your community. You have your beliefs and ideals, and each of us have our OWN beliefs and ideals.

This reminds me of someone asking me what the 7 deadly sins being the theme I based my latest site design on. "Won't clients frown upon that...." Many statements like that were said to me. My reply was: If a client is not going to hire me because of a theme on MY PERSONAL website where I produce graphically the particular mood or setting I was experiencing at that juncture...more than likely I do not want to even associate with that individual or company to begin with.

Each of us would react differently to someone asking that same question. Others might think it was a valid point and not go forward with something which was passionate to them personally. Designers have morals and rules, even if we are freelancers. If someone wants to design for a Porn site and the money is right, let them do it...who are you to tell them otherwise?

If a particular religion that you do not agree with comes along and asks you to create a logo or site for them, you have the ability to make a DECISION and choose not to work with that client. I for one, if approached would not work with a religious client. It is not in my beliefs, therefore I would not have any passion to create a product for that client. Where you lack passion, you lack virtually all aspects of any creative avenue.

Two years ago, I was approached to design a site for a fairly large Porn actress. I turned it down at the time...but now, [admin edit]expletive removed[/edit] I would have loved to have done that....just because you do something, doesn't mean it has to tie itself back to you directly.

There are easily 20 websites I have designed over the last 6 years that I never once owned up to making and asked that my name not be anywhere on the client site.

Just last week I had a democratic candidate in town approach me at my weekend job to help with his campaign and do website marketing. I declined immediately. How could I support a political party that I cannot stand? I made a simple decision and that is what it all comes down to.

You or anyone else can spout off all kinds of [admin edit]defamatory descriptive term removed[/edit] factoids and truisms, but when the sun goes down and we take that last glance in the mirror before bed, we all know we have or had the ability to make a decision and in most cases, no one pressured us into doing just that (at least in this regard).

I am sure I will think of more to say after this is posted...I guess since I am not the least bit religious, I just find some of the things you are spouting as pretty [admin edit]expletive removed[/edit] trivial when as a religious person you could be focusing on stuff that actually is relevant to major world issues.

[admin edit]disrespectful emoticon removed[/edit]

[WildCard]

maybe he's creatively letting it be known that he's not interested in Voudun prejudices.

You know, I never knew there were egyptian priests operating in the elglish speaking world. You should tell us a little about your faith. To be honest, I thought you were just someone with a little extra money looking to get design work done for your hobby of egyptian memorabilia.

-WC-

[rlevant]

just find some of the things you are spouting as pretty **** trivial when as a religious person you could be focusing on stuff that actually is relevant to major world issues.

Greetings

So you and I actually are are greater agreement with one another than either of us are with anyone else in this thread !

By that I do not mean we would make the same choices. Obviously not;-)

However, we both state that major world issues matter. And we both have concerns about how what we do and what others do impacts the world...

And have these so much so....that there are very ceary some things we each would not do in a business context...

and some clients we would turn down based on that content and those beeifs.

Terrific

Best

[designmarket]

What specifically did you not see, in which logo?
I specifically did not see or hear the designer state that their art was representitive of your interpretations or summary:
artists portrayng Vodoun Clergy as wild eyed zombies with pins and white women running in fear of Voodoo
I specifically do not see any "Vodoun Clergy" portrayed in the art at all.



Surely it is up to the contest holder to choose the logo that he/she feels is most appropriate for their market


Do you really believe that across the board. If you do what makes it reasonable-- or actually is it reasonable in your view-- to not permit pornography here?

This would also seem to imply that market value is the only criteria that should matter. And that the designer has no responsibility in terms of the social impact of the work they design

Would you say the same if the issue were degrading sterotypes of women? of black people, of jewish faith?
.

I see nothing in the style of art asked for by the contest holder other than their attempt to portray their product & their company within a niche market that has already accepted imagry & symbolisims that many would oppose.

I see nothing in the work of the designers that specifically attacks any person or religion in the way that you are feeling it is.

I believe to defend your religion you have a higher arena to work in to stop the damage you feel is being done to your faith by the world outside it.

As with any good thing (or thing you hold precious) there will always be misrepresentation and there always has been.

I guess I am just not feeling that this issue you have is one that is within the scope of these forums to answer.

This is not a political or religious discussion board and yet you have laced all of your postings with who you are and what you believe. You have done this in a friendly way but I think it oversteps the mark to try to solve the problems of the world here and now and try to law down rules and restrictions that are based on hypertheticals and things that are not a question under consideration for the admin team currently.

What outcome would you like to see.. should we tell the contest holder to go away and change his business name? Do you want to say that the designers are not allowed to design for the subject of vodoo anything that is not within your guidelines for interpretation of your religion?????

Do you want to run the surfboard competition.

I do not mean to be offensive, I am just expressing my take on the situation and my percpective and opinion. :)

[designmarket]

"However, we both state that major world issues matter"

Of course they do... but this really is personal to each individual as to their world view and their bigger picture and how they wish to interact in the world..their level of spiritual awareness or wherever they are or choose to be.

I personally turn away work for a large range of reasons that do not gel with my ethics or beliefs.

So what!

I do my thing.. others do their thing. Judge them? Sometimes.. Fight them? .. Sometimes. It depends on the cause... or the damage done .. or the legal positions.

[rlevant]

You know, I never knew there were egyptian priests operating in the elglish speaking world. You should tell us a little about your faith. To be honest, I thought you were just someone with a little extra money looking to get design work done for your hobby of egyptian memorabilia.

HA! That is so funny. I tech college part time (which means no health benefits and very little money;-) and run the temple.

No extra money here. Having just completed my doctoral dissertation I'm still living primarily on student loans.

"extra" money is just not a concept I can grasp except in the abstract..though it is certainly a pleasant one:)

And I got to tell you --I had actualy always hated egyptian memorabila!

I love it now..but you know how some folks are with the taste of beer initialy?

[rlevant]

For these reasons, Palmer and Design Outpost would be really smart (and IMO ethical) given the public nature of its contests, to set out a few principles similar to which designers and contest holders would agree before accepting designers or clients.


Hi Xterior motive asked what I woud like to see.

I woud like to see policies such as this adopted?

Palmer what is you view on these policies?

Xterior claims there is no way you would consider such policy. Is that true?


The Australian Advertisaing Standards Bureau lays these out well..let me post them here:

SECTION 2

2.1 Advertisements shall not portray people or depict material in a way, which discriminates against or vilifies a person or section of the community on account of race, ethnicity, nationality, sex, age, sexual preference, religion, disability or political belief.
2.2 Advertisements shall not present or portray violence unless it is justifiable in the context of the product or service advertised.
2.3 Advertisements shall treat sex, sexuality and nudity with sensitivity to the relevant audience and, where appropriate, the relevant programme time zone.
2.4 Advertisements for any product which is meant to be used by or purchased by children shall not contain anything which is likely to cause alarm or distress to those children.
2.5 Advertisements shall only use language which is appropriate in the circumstances and strong or obscene language shall be avoided.
2.6 Advertisements shall not depict material contrary to prevailing community standards on health and safety.

[WildCard]

does anyone worship at your temple? Were you born into this faith? What do you teach in college?

-WC-

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-rlevant+Nov 17 2003, 11:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rlevant @ Nov 17 2003, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For these reasons, Palmer and Design Outpost would be really smart (and IMO ethical) given the public nature of its contests, to set out a few principles similar to which designers and contest holders would agree before accepting designers or clients.


Hi Xterior motive asked what I woud like to see.

I woud like to see policies such as this adopted?

Palmer what is you view on these policies?

Xterior claims there is no way you would consider such policy. Is that true?


The Australian Advertisaing Standards Bureau lays these out well..let me post them here:

SECTION 2

2.1 Advertisements shall not portray people or depict material in a way, which discriminates against or vilifies a person or section of the community on account of race, ethnicity, nationality, sex, age, sexual preference, religion, disability or political belief.
2.2 Advertisements shall not present or portray violence unless it is justifiable in the context of the product or service advertised.
2.3 Advertisements shall treat sex, sexuality and nudity with sensitivity to the relevant audience and, where appropriate, the relevant programme time zone.
2.4 Advertisements for any product which is meant to be used by or purchased by children shall not contain anything which is likely to cause alarm or distress to those children.
2.5 Advertisements shall only use language which is appropriate in the circumstances and strong or obscene language shall be avoided.
2.6 Advertisements shall not depict material contrary to prevailing community standards on health and safety. [/b][/quote]
It's a shame I am not in Australia.

I don't get how you want standards here and keep providing an example of one area in the world. If you wanted standards, write up your own...don't keep quoting someone elses views on how advertising should or shouldn't be.

Take the time, be productive and enlighten us all as to what it is you want done and why...then we can tell you why its wrong and why it won't happen.

:tup:

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-rlevant+Nov 17 2003, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rlevant @ Nov 17 2003, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Xterior

I hope Palmer has the sense not to allow you to flame clients.

Your posts say a great deal about your values

as do mine.

Best [/b][/quote]
Flame?

No offense (yet again) but I would have walked away from you after reading your first post. Having worked with varying clients from across the globe over the last 6-7 years, I can tell pretty easily how much of a pain in the hump someone is going to be.

And honestly, Palmer can erase my posts as he deems them appropriate (because I respect him and his decisions...for the most part :lol: )...but if you are taking the time to rehash the same posts over and over again, I will be right here to critique every aspect of it.

Touche.

[Palmer]

Just to let everyone know, I am monitoring this thread so play nice.

Regarding our "policy" on what clients we will accept:

"One final note, we do not allow contests for pornographic or objectionable products."

So who determines what is objectionable? I do. As some of you know I am a born-again Christian. I want my business to reflect that in what is or is not permitted to be produced here. I will not allow any form of pornography, anything illegal, or anything that would be offensive or culturally insensitive.

Unfortunately we are not very well educated on all forms of religion in the world. What we know of Voodoo is pretty much limited to Scooby Doo cartoons and Brady Bunch re-runs. There was never any intention of anybody offending anyone on this forum by the comments made about the images made for a surfboard logo.

It is simple ignorance and hopefully we are all better informed now.

[rlevant]

Thanks Palmer,

I want to be really clear that in raising these concerns I never felt or implied that anyone had "bad intentions" or even meant to do anything hurtful or harmful or offensive.

Quite the opposite. When pre-judice is deep it is just taken as..well..being there..how things are.

I am really aware that someone coud create a logo like the ones I am speaking of ...and be super supportive of the right of of faith to practice and of individuals from that faith with no personal animosity what so ever.

As I said either here or in an email...while I do feel it is important to raise such things...I do not feel that there is an implication of "badness" on the part of those just doing what has been taken as a given (such as Vodoo=pins)

What does trouble me on a deeper level is when posters instead of discussing the issue or having an interest..turn it on the person who raises the issue in a personal manner.

I find the fact that a designer here has done this very sad.

Best

[Tonya]

I was an art major when I started college, but I ended up with a degree in American Studies by the time I graduated. Basically, American Studies is the study of American history from a cultural perspective--not what happened, but what it meant to American society and how it affected our ever-evolving culture. I don't mention this to try to establish that I have any sort of special credentials for discussing a particular religion (I don't), but just to sort of let you know where my perspective comes from.

What is voodoo all about? I have absolutely no idea. All I know is what I've gathered from movies and from visiting a voodoo shop in New Orleans. I know nothing of it's origins or of its actual practice. So to me, voodoo is this weird blend of mysticism and holistic medicine. And whether I'm right or wrong doesn't really matter because I don't have a responsiblity to be true to something that I have no involvement in. My job is to create a visual image of an idea, not define a meaning.

I don't get the feeling that the idea behind "Voodoo Surfboards" is to denigrate a religion. If it were, I probably wouldn't have entered it. I do have a code of ethics; I have a responsibility to not be cruel or mean-spirited and I wouldn't design a logo for a company that I felt were promoting racism or misogyny or any other form of hatred. What I think the owner of "Voodoo Surfboards" wants is a graphic that conveys the popular culture version of "voodoo": mystical, mysterious, underground, alternative, unknown, and maybe even a little creepy... skulls, bones, powders, blood, dolls, pins, etc.

So I might not convey a correct representation of the true nature of Voodoo, but it most certainly wouldn't be a spiteful or mean representation. Being knowledgeable and involved in the subject, you might have a different take on my design because you're approaching it from an academic standpoint and I'm approaching it as pop-culture. But that's really the point I'm trying to make. I'm going for not a graphical representation of truth, but rather symbolic imagery of an idea.

If this contest were for a voodoo shop, you'd have a good argument. But this is for a surfboard company--a company that has nothing to do with the practice of voodoo. They're not misleading anyone and they're certainly not perpetuating any kind of attack against practitioners of voodoo. They're merely using a popular culture notion of "voodoo" to sell some surfboards. It's commercialism, not racism. Bringing up racism suggests that voodoo is can only be practiced by a specific race of people and that anything other than a true and correct promotion of voodoo is a deliberate attempt to degrade that race. And that's an absurd notion. Religions are not race-specific regardless of how they originate. If there were, then they themselves would be racist religions.

[designmarket]

Tonya - that is an excellent summary, I have no argument with it.

Well said.

[rlevant]

Hi Tonya,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Again...I hope your have heard that my assumption here is in no way bad will or intentional predjudice towards anything or anyone fro those in the contest

My concerns are with the effect of perpetuating this popular image of Vodoun regardless of intentions.

I wonder if the distinction you are making between a Surf Shop and a Voudoun Store is one you would make between a Surf Shop and a feminist book store :)

I mean that seriously. If images drew on the popular ideas of female's as stupid and weak..

Would that be something acceptible to you..

You see portrayng a white lady running from Vodoo practitioners ...and portraying the faith as violent and "a little creepy" is not just a popular image that some like ..nor one that some academics hate.

It is one that has been believed about the faith and resulted in physical, legal and personal attacks on practitioners...on people losing jobs when it is heard they are among the Voudoun faithful.

I know if you have not had the experience of watching good people suffer as a result of the prejudice which has been so deeply fostered by the media and advertising..
it could all seem like good clean fun.

The thing is Tonya-- I have. And not just once or twice.

The scholarly stuff comes in only in that it helps me understand how these images got started in the first place...and that what I have witnessed of the harm this has done has deep roots in certain sterotypes of African American's and African people and African based religions.

So my main concern and perspectve does not come from academic stuff..But from being with and knowing real people and seeing the effects of these sort of attitudes in practice.

Some of these people are also Christians..attend Catholic Church regularly but have needed to hide aspects of their faith for fear of what might happen if their sisters and brothers in Christ found out. Just as they are fearful at work and have been kicked out of jobs they did well when it was discovered...and denied housing and so forth

Again ..even the worst of the logos..the white woman running from Voudoun and blood laced words and such do not actively promote this sort of discrimination. And as I stated above there is no assumption on my part that they intended any harm..or even thought about Voudoun as a religion in making the logo. And I would say the same thing about theclients doing the surfing.. They are into the "coolness: of the image (in their view and that of their market)

Mens sexist comements and pictures about women are often like that. And I have found some men whose imagery leaves much to be desired..to actually do pretty well personally in how they are with women (And the same I have seen by the way from women towards men;-))

it is all in fun. Appealing to a Market

Images of money grabbing Jews in a Jewish Temple would also not necessarily imply that the artists had any problem with Jewish faith or Jewish people.

Many have just found those cool. Infact for some depictions of the large nosed person grabbing money ..donlt REALLY on some level mean anything at all about Jewish people to the authors.

The fact is I see these pictures ..and the images that come to my mind..are not abstract images of logos..or pages from a school book.

It is the pictures of people who have suffered greatly because of the perpetuation of this sort of belief about their faith and often their people.

Best

Rev Renee

[designmarket]

You see portrayng a white lady running from Vodoo practitioners ...and portraying the faith

I do not see any vodoo practitioners in that image??? and I don't think the contest is intended to portray a faith. The intention is to create a design for the surfers to relate to not to promote a faith.

[rlevant]

Hi Design Market

Ahh I think I see..what you are seeing.


The words Voodoo drenched in red are rather prominent and the image is a take off on those from hollywood horror movies that depict Vodoun practitioners as violent and creepy and causing harm especially to White women:-)

This was a popular genre of film

Unfortunately.

Rev Renee

[designmarket]

It's not my idea of fun entertainment.. but each to their own, I guess :blink:

[rlevant]

LOL

And I think you know I was not suggesting it was heh

[designmarket]

Question for you Rev...
Would you class an image of a wicked witch on a broomstick or a warlock plotting evil against little children (or whatever) as equaly eligible for complaint (in the same way as you have reacted...)
because there are witches & warlocks whose faith / religion are being portrayed in a manner that is stereotyped in a way that is not deemed accurate to their meaning and their practice of their faith...?

[rlevant]

Hi Design Market

Interesting question.

The movie "The Craft" would be an example of a use of media and art in a manner that negatively portrays wicca and those who would use the term "witch" to describe a practitioner of their faith.

On the level of graphic design-- a more apt comparison than the witch on the broom..to the above vodoo logo of a "vodoo face" and blood would be a pentacle dripping with blood

And then yes that would be the same sort of religious prejudice

The white woman runnng from Voodoo with the skull and blood drenched words ....would be most similar in effect to a hand holding a pentacle with screaming children running from it

In the the context of Vodoun it the hollywood horror show white women screaming has clear racial connotations against Black men

While Tanya is correct Vodoun is not only African Americans it is a religion... it is strongly associated with it's origins and attacks on one often go hand in hand with attacks on the other.

(and if you are following the thread notice the contest creators praise of the connection to evil, the "rasta hair" (how is that for a racial overtone made more explicit!)



Best

Rev Renee

[designmarket]

LOL.. some of my little white neice & nephews sport "rasta" hair ... it's an in thing especially with the surfing scene.... they are not making a racist or religious statement in their choose of fashion..
sorry.. you cannot win this, in my opinion!

[rlevant]

I do not need..nor have any desire to "win" you over. Many are reading this thread;-)

This is a public discussion..and the gross racist pictures above are also public

And since both this and that contest are publically available I will continue to address the issues:)

As far your little relatives imitating black styles. Yes mine do too.


If what they wanted was white surferdudes with rasta hair..I would simply grin. After imitation is a form of flattery

However they don't do it and associate it with the word VOODOO , with objects associated with the faith and with evil..

all of which have been explicitely requested here. The connections have been made by the contest holder and the artists.

And I am appalled that no one here seems to take seriously the fact that on the basis of the false view of the connection between vodoo, violence , evil and pins....and sometimes violence vodoo evil pins and black people...real people who practice a beautiful faith have been beaten up, killed, discriminated against, denied the right to have access to their children or to adopt oravoided and so forth simply scorned and avoided. That that preceise connection has been the basis of such irrational attacks and needless suffering is a well documented fact.

So my question is why that is of so very little concern of anyone else here. There is greater concern expressed in this thread that * I have concern on this matter* ..than there is any expression of concern about how these people have been treated..or how the hollywood notion of violence and Voodoo has been given as the justification for these inhuman actions

Rev Renee

[designmarket]

I oppose evil, violent, hate filled, anti social imagry myself.. I also do not like the connections to death & destruction we see so frequently in pop culture..

BUT I have no particular reason to be concerned about voodoo than I have to any other usage of gruesome and underworld imagry.

I oppose some of the music the kids get into.. however this is not the place to take MY battles, thought & opinions..

I think that is the point I am trying to make.. If you so dislike the competition holders stance and marketing plan.. why don't you call him/her and attack them outside this arena.

Sorry, I am beginning to feel a little annoyed by this.. I do not feel your critique of the designers and othe contest holders is in the best interests of THIS community which is not YOUR community, cannot you argue out your debate and actions for changing the world within your own forums, with your own people?... I'd best go off line... :tup:

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-rlevant+Nov 18 2003, 03:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rlevant @ Nov 18 2003, 03:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I do not need..nor have any desire to "win" you over. Many are reading this thread;-)

This is a public discussion..and the gross racist pictures above are also public

And since both this and that contest are publically available I will continue to address the issues:)

As far your little relatives imitating black styles. Yes&nbsp; mine do too.


If what they wanted was white surferdudes with rasta hair..I would simply grin. After imitation is a form of flattery

However they don't do it and associate it with the word VOODOO , with objects associated with the faith and with evil..

all of which have been explicitely requested here.&nbsp; The connections have been made by the contest holder and the artists.

And I am appalled that no one here seems to take seriously the fact that on the basis&nbsp; of the false view of the connection between vodoo, violence , evil and pins....and sometimes violence vodoo evil pins and black people...real people who practice a beautiful faith have been beaten up, killed, discriminated against, denied the right to have access to their children or to adopt oravoided and so forth simply scorned and avoided.&nbsp; That that preceise connection has been the basis of such&nbsp; irrational attacks and needless suffering is a well documented fact.&nbsp;

So my question is why that is of so very little concern of anyone else here. There is greater concern&nbsp; expressed in this thread that * I have concern on this matter* ..than there is any expression of&nbsp; concern about how these people have been treated..or how the hollywood notion of violence and Voodoo has been given as the justification for these inhuman actions

Rev Renee [/b][/quote]
These are all valid 'opinions' from someone who has a skewed manner of looking at such a subject. You are passionate about this (obviously) therefore you cannot be objective about it.

The human race as a whole is unable to become completely rational and objective when presented with information which hits close to home or a topic is brought up where they have emotional ties. It is human nature...which is proven by sociological and psychological studies. You cannot refute that.

In saying this, I don't feel a DESIGN community is the place for you to be discussing this. Being a contest holder does not give you or anyone else here special immunity. This is a community to discuss design, open contests and to discuss those specific topics.

My qualm with you, is the fact that you are beating a dead horse. You spoke your peace...we listened and now you are simply trying to force feed your beliefs to everyone else on the board; that is a quick way to lose the attention of your audience.

If you are trying to educate and inform people, I don't think attempting to do so within a tight-knit group of designers is the best way to approach your cause.

I also think you are reading way too heavily into the connotations behind the contest in question and remarks or content which has been presented there. Racism is present each day within each of our lives. Millions of people have been opressed for hundreds of years, including my ancestors (Irish) who came over, only to be basically be taken advantage of and forced to work for slave wages during the major wave of immigration into the United States. We see the same thing happening right now in terms of people coming into the country from Guatemala, Mexico and Brazil. My point is, each of us has faced some kind of diversification such as this throughout the course of our lives...some more than others, but racism or discrimination is not something new nor will it be going away anytime soon.

If you feel so strongly about these issues, take the time to utilize your church to educate people but don't come onto a message board which focuses on design and try to convince us that it is evil for someone to follow (or use as guidelines) the cultural norms we have all grown accustomed to within each hour of the course of a lifetime.

You are passionate, for that I give you credit...but I think it is time you moved on and placed your focus elsewhere, where its goals might be accomplished more effectively and not have hours of opportunity costs associated with such a task.



:chef:

[rlevant]

Suppose for a moment, it turns out hat the contest holder was an open advocate of "White Power" And that the created work would be used to support that movement

would that change anything in your world view?

And Yes when yu need to attack people for discussing rather than disagreeing or going away..it is time for you to go go offline;-)

I hope you feel better soon

And I do wonder if the above would change your perceptions?

Rev Renee

[motiveX]

<!--QuoteBegin-rlevant+Nov 18 2003, 05:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rlevant @ Nov 18 2003, 05:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Suppose for a moment, it turns out hat the contest holder was an open advocate of "White Power"&nbsp; And that the created work would be used to support that movement

would that change anything in your world view?

And Yes&nbsp; when yu need to attack people for discussing rather than disagreeing or going away..it is time for you to go go offline;-)

I hope you feel better soon

And I do wonder if the above would change your perceptions?

Rev Renee [/b][/quote]
I don't know if that rhetorical question (which I am going to answer anyways) was posed to myself or to DM...but I shall tackle it before I hit the sheets.

First off, a contest like that would never even make it here into this forum because it would be against the beliefs of Palmer and the ideals behind this business.

IF for some reason I was approached by a client wanting to use such material for a movement such as that, I would regretfully decline due to a full-plate. I use that excuse for anything and everything. It is the most effective way to turn down a project and not hurt any feelings or cause a rift among potential clients.

In saying the latter, I think the comparison is truly lackluster at best. The contest holder in question (which there shouldn't be a question to begin with) is simply looking for a design for his Surfboard company. It is not like he runs a board company out of Jamaica and has plans for mocking everyone or anything associated with voodoo.

Side Note: Check out this custom PC maker...I would be interested to hear how this is improper use of the Voodoo name as well.

http://www.voodoopc.com/

This is an endless conversation. You will continue to answer a question with a question and the cycle will continue until someone snaps. At the end of the day nothing you have said is going to change anything to do with the surfboard contest. I am sure we all appreciate you educating us on the theories and providing us with one aspect of a very deep and historical practice, but yet again I find myself going back to the point of, this is not the time or the place.

If I had known there were going to be religious discussions going on within the Design Outpost, I probably would have never joined.

I am the exact opposite of a religious person. I respect anyone and everything who practices religion, but the minute someone attempts to force feed me material or go on and on about something I really don't see as productive it just ends up being a big waste of my time.

I wonder how you would feel about this if this discussion was brought up on your company's place of business and potentiallly made contest holders and employees feel gunshy about starting a contest or entering a design because it might not be 200% politically correct or cause a random person to claim it contains racism or is discriminating a specific group of people or religion.

[designmarket]

I am sure that if there was a design competition for a blatantly anti - group campaign the admin would make a suitable decision. That is not the current case. IMO

If you are referring to me as attacking you, errrmmmm in what way am I doing so? Have I insulted you, by adding my opinions to this discussion?

:huh: I'm not quite understanding that one.

[mittentopbranden]

Rlevant,
I don't want to offend you or play down what you are trying to present here but
I think maybe if you end your discussion at this point you just might leave some positive imprints about religious respect in the minds of us all. You have made all of us think about the depictions designers make here and I think your positive points have been noted and truely thought about. I feel that the designers/contest holders who have followed this post will be more conscious of the things you have brought up. As we have all seen it is sometimes a very fine line between what is fun and interesting to some and offensive to others. Ultimately it is dependant upon prior causes and conditions for us to make this distinction.

I do however think that there is a negative cloud hanging over this thread because of some things you have said in your posts. It is very possible that you have personally offended many more people than any surfboard image ever could. I don't want you to have this terribly negative karma so I pray that I can humbly present to you the advice to come away from this as someone who made the positive imprints that I have alluded to above without going further into the negative territory....

I really think most of the good folks here would choose to take away your positive ideas if you would calmly, respectfully, and peacefully do the right thing and let this entire issue rest. If you decide to bow out of this thread I think everyone will consider you to be an asset to their lives in teaching us to be more conscious of other religious ideas.... . We can change the world one person at a time and in my belief we can only do this with love at the center of our thoughts. Lets offer our kindness and love to some of the most important things right now - like our friend Palmer who is probably stressing over this while he and his family are dealing with diabetes.

With genuine love and compassion,
Brandon
(Lobsang Tenzin)

P.S.- Best of luck with your contests and temple.

[rlevant]

Hi

So I a glad to hear that we all do agree that if we believed something was to be used for "blatently" racist purposes ...it would be the "right thing" to prevent it.

And that you don't want a situation where everything was a potential source of alarm.

I can follow you that far. Makes good sense

The problem is that large in between area.

Indulge me on one last "hypothetical" This one a lot more concrete you may notice

That in a contestants country there was a growing white supremacist movement that had become so deeply emeshed in certain youth scenes that the government actually acted to ban racist lyrics.

And suppose that scene had particularly strong following in the area of the country that the contest holder was based. An that these scenes were ones in which the contest holder moved.

Suppose it is not the case that individuals in these scenes were personaly particularly racist but most of the rather frequent racist violence in the area came from participants in that scene.

And that the scene based much of its sort of cultural unity on themes from 1940 and 1950's Britsh horror shows whose portrayal of black and African people is particularly pleasing to The National Alliance and other white supremacist groups throughout the world.

And in this scene giving the white Power sign was a normal part of those at any gig.

And immediately following contests the rate of attacks on non white people's increased vastly.

Yet it is the general consensus that such portrayals have directly been contributing to the violence. This would include the government of the country itself who pass numerous laws bit report having a realy had time stemming the racist violence due to the cultural atmosphere


In such a circumstance would you provide the person with material such as the hollywood logo of the woman running from VOODOO and blood dripping ...
after all it would not be blatent right? It is perfectly possible that in the scenario I mention the individual harbors no ill feelings towards non white people.

Yet the affects of this imagery have been felt by many non white people in Australia

Rev Renee

[rlevant]

Greetings Brandon!

I am glad you found some things discussed here helpful.


<<I do however think that there is a negative cloud hanging over this thread because of some things you have said in your posts. It is very possible that you have personally offended many more people than any surfboard image ever could. >>

Brandon...I see one designer attacking at every chance he can get in the thread and having his constant stream of personally defamitory comments removed.

I have not seen concern voice about that at all. And he WORKS here!

And unlike our friend there other than pointing his continued disrespect ...
I have not made a single personal attack.

I have only stayed on the issues and asked that adhonemim attacks be removed and stopped Palmer indicated that he would see that they did stop and that he felt the discussion should happen.

I believe this discussion could have been a good one,, Had personal attacks not been permitted. The intent of those attacks was to either force me to not discuss the issue-- which did not work :) or to strike back in the same manner (which did not work :) or to continue to discuss it despite the fact that it would not be a great atmosphere --which worked :(

Yes --I have stated that I do see certain things as racist and I have had experiences which are not just about personal offense..but such ideas and images being put into racist violent attacks on real people.

I believe that if someone experiences this claim as personally offensive it is because they believe that racism is all about bad will and intention.

That is not my point of view..and I am not encouraging *guilt*. Guilt doesn't make sense unless the offense is intentional.

Responsibility , however, does. It comes not because we personally messed up..But because we are human persons, affect one another and have the ABILITY to Respond

From my perspective to have a situation like this one and let it go would be the source of our closest equivalent to "bad Karma"

Given what has been said publically I feel rather certain those made behnd the scenes were even more personal and more attacking.

And the fact that people feeling offended by my "saying what I said" is not something that would impell me to stop as much as the actual suffering of the Mother whose kid was killed after one of those Voodoo Concerts compells me to speak out

I do not wish to hurt anyones feelings. And I hope people can see that the reality of living in a community where sterotypes of certain sorts are not just yucky idea's bit cause the loss of jobs, children, self-esteem, physical beatings, constant stigmatization and even at times ..as in what I called hypothetical (which is actually true) racist murders of people

Sorry Brandon but my heart cannot be more moved because some people's feelings hurt when I speak of it. than I am moved by the Mother whose kid was killed after a "Voodoo" concert--It would not be Ma'at

[Mike]

<off topic> I can't believe people are up this early too :| </off>

[rlevant]

<also off topic> This early? You mean THIS LATE :lol2: </also off topic>

[Palmer]

I think everyone has voiced their opinion who has wanted to and all the points have been made. Any more discussion can be communicated privately.

Please visit this site (http://www.tinyplanet.com) for any future discussion/debate on religion or politics. It is a much more appropriate forum. This thread, although it has been educational, has caused a lot of anger. We do not need that at this forum and we do not need that in the world.

There will no longer be any more public discussion of this nature at this site ever again.

Peace