Shipping and handling fees?

[Chen]

Can someone please explain why 10% is added to logo and template sales for "shipping and handling"? Since when does "shipping" a file by email cost $15? And what exactly is there to "handle"? Does it cost you $15to zip a file? Look here:
http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/index....T&f=23&t=810&s= (http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=23&t=810&s=)
To purchase this original logo for only $165 ($150 plus 10% handling)

Personally I won't purchase anything that includes 10% for shipping or handling. Daylight robbery I say. It usually doesn't cost that much to ship something tangible on UPS.

[Michael]

Hello,

I believe and don't quote me on this that the 10% is for the upkeep of the site, I would say this site is a business to the founders (design agency) and the 10% is for them to keep this site going and provide such talent.
The only way to add the 10% was through Shipping I believe they try to add it on with it saying it.

Now i'm sure Palmer one of the founders will correct me if I'm wrong.


Michael

[Palmer]

Yes, Michael is right. The 10% is my cut of the sale (actually 8.8% after PayPal takes their cut) The rest of the sale goes to the designer who made the logo or template. PayPal does not have an option to call it anything other than shipping and handling.

I put in over 70 hours a week running this site, I think 10% of any sale or contest is a reasonable payment for my time not to mention the cost of the hosting. I'm sorry that you consider that "daylight robbery", correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine you get paid for the time you put in on your job as well.

[motiveX]

And to be honest, THAT price is STILL low for a custom logo with the skill level which Kimber offers for logos.

I don't get how anyone can complain about a price that low, for ANYTHING.

:tdown:

[heebgb]

$165 for a logo....$200 for a logo ( $198 ) http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/index....T&f=23&t=784&s= (http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=23&t=784&s=)....Personally I won't purchase anything that includes 10% for shipping or handling. ....well...as a husband of a deisigner on this forum let me tell you that even $400 is cheap. I've seen my wife put in 20-30 hrs on a logo that is sold for less than $100 yet she does it...why?...to get her name out there and then do work for these people at the proper rates that should be charged. This forum is not about making the owner any money or ripping people off. It was put together to help artists and designers make contacts and at the same time give Palmer ( owner ) an income which by the way is not that much. But you have the right to refuse to be "robbed by daylight" There is only one other forum on the web that i know of that even comes close to how this one is run with its degree of professionalism. By the way, LOTS of people pay that "daylight robbery" ..........thanks for the rant...

[Chen]

Originally posted by Palmer@Jun 25 2003, 05:49 AM
Yes, Michael is right. The 10% is my cut of the sale (actually 8.8% after PayPal takes their cut) The rest of the sale goes to the designer who made the logo or template. PayPal does not have an option to call it anything other than shipping and handling.

I put in over 70 hours a week running this site, I think 10% of any sale or contest is a reasonable payment for my time not to mention the cost of the hosting. I'm sorry that you consider that "daylight robbery", correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine you get paid for the time you put in on your job as well.
Palmer, thank you for replying. I have no doubt you put in a lot of time and hard work into this site and I am sure it is appreciated. I also have no doubt that you deserved to be paid for this hard work. However, I don't believe that labeling 10% of every sale under "shipping and handling" without any explanation is the right way to get compensation. You should take a look at sites such as Rent-A-Coder (www.rentacoder.com), that offer the same kind of service you have here (of course it is much more complex but the idea behind both sites is the same). They do not charge the customer for the 10%, and I am sure I am not the only one that finds this insulting, like you do here, instead they charge the service provider (in their case, the coders, in your case, the designers) for a fee in return for the platform they are given here on your site. If you visit a city, let's say New York, and purchase a painting from a store, you are not forced to pay the city 10% just because the purchase was performed there, are you? The city takes its money from the store itself, because it is given a place to show the merchandise. In the same way, the designers here should be responsible for paying you because they use your services, in this case the site. Of course, the designers will have to rethink their prices so instead of $150 they would ask for $165 - but at least the customers will not be made to look like fools for paying $15 for "shipping and handling".


xteriormotive and heebgb, I was not looking for trouble nor did I criticize the prices. If you had read my post with more attention you would've realized that my problem is with the "shipping and handling" fees of the product, whether it costs $10 or $1,000.
:bang:

[Palmer]

I think the main "beef" you're having is with the logos and templates for sale in the Marketplace forum, not with the contest holders being charged a 10% fee on top of their prize money.

So in addressing your complaint about that, PayPal automatically places a 10% "shipping and handling" fee on any transaction made to our account. I'm not able to be selective on what sales get 10% added and which ones do not.

I almost gave up on even having the logo and template sales because I didn't want to have the 10% added on but a few of the contest holders said I deserved to make a small profit on sales from this site and they wouldn't have any problem with paying that fee.

http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/index....T&f=22&t=756&s= (http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=756&s=)

So I guess you can blame them :P

[ejlain]

You should take a look at sites such as Rent-A-Coder (www.rentacoder.com), that offer the same kind of service you have here (of course it is much more complex but the idea behind both sites is the same).

Much more complex? I'm not sure but was that a dig at DO? Is my nose bleeding? :lol2:

As far as the comment about customers being made to look like fools…I take offense at that as I feel that the customers here are treated with the utmost respect. OK, big deal, we make them all wear bright red beanies with propellers on top but is that really that foolish now? We still respect them. :lol:

[Chen]

Originally posted by ejlain@Jun 27 2003, 11:15 AM
Much more complex? I'm not sure but was that a dig at DO? Is my nose bleeding? :lol2:
Not at all, but then again I'm sure you haven't even visited the site I linked to so discussing this with you is pointless. But when one site runs everything off a forum, and another site actually uses a real system to manage bids, comments, money transfers, file attachment, private conversations and an escrow service, and still serves over 10,000 customers, it is obvious which is "much more complex".


Palmer: It seems you don't understand one important thing - this is not the only site I can get quality art work through. If I don't like this place, there are hundreds other I can choose from. And you are wrong - I don't feel like paying extra for contests either. I think my analogy to the store is perfect so that's why you are ignorin it. If some people don't mind paying you 10% for this "service", when in fact the designers should be paying you the fees, good for them. I am sure I'm not the only one who's troubled by this. But thank you for keeping an open-mind (or not), I'll just hold my contests on other sites.

Best of luck.

[Victoria]

I think DesignOutpost works very well as it is without having to be 'complex'.

[coxy]

Originally posted by Victoria@Jun 28 2003, 11:29 AM
I think DesignOutpost works very well as it is without having to be 'complex'.
Is that the sound of lips meeting buttocks... :kiss: :lol:

No, but DO does work without being complex, but there is no denying that there are creases to be ironed out. But thats only natural in any system like this.... :)

[Victoria]

Yeah, stop kissin my bum coxy. :rip:

[ejlain]

[/QUOTE]Not at all, but then again I'm sure you haven't even visited the site I linked to so discussing this with you is pointless.

(pulls finger out of ear) duhh, no I never would have thought to check out the URL you provided so that I could have a well-informed, intelligent conversation with you on the subject. MMM, well some things really are pointless!

It seems you don't understand one important thing - this is not the only site I can get quality art work through. If I don't like this place, there are hundreds other I can choose from[/QUOTE]

Yep, like i said, some things really are pointless.

[Julie]

First, I've worked on such sites. I know that the bidders figure the cost of winning a bid into the final price...and a lot of them also figure in the cost of belonging to the site, like the hundreds it costs to just bid at elance. So...here at DO, it's out in the open--you know that 10% is added to the price. On rentacoder and the rest it may not be visible, but it's there, believe me. What's the difference?

Second, sites like rentacoder don't actually let you view a variety of finished products BEFORE you pick a bidder. That's probably the biggest benefit of working with DO from a client's point of view.
Julie

[Liz]

Originally posted by Chen@Jun 27 2003, 07:48 AM
In the same way, the designers here should be responsible for paying you because they use your services, in this case the site. Of course, the designers will have to rethink their prices so instead of $150 they would ask for $165 - but at least the customers will not be made to look like fools for paying $15 for "shipping and handling".
I might also add that, as JulieT hinted at, unlike other sites you've mentioned, designoutpost allows you to see potential designs for your specific project from several designers BEFORE you select a finished product. I've seen some contests run with dozen of submissions and revisions from very talented designers.

I don't know if you're aware of the value of quality design work, or the time it takes for a designer to put together even a rough mockup, but no designer pulls one of these mockups out of a hat after 10 minutes. Maybe you haven't taken the time to consider that.

In the traditional client/studio market, this preliminary work would be charged at a standard hourly rate, regardless of whether the client was happy with all of the results or not.

Every mockup a designer here does for a contest that doesn't "win" costs time; and time is money.

Although you don't see the contribution from the design team in terms of a percentage charged to us, you do see the contribution every time a designer enters a client's contest. Every time a designer posts multiple revisions. Every time a designer spends the hours to work with a contest holder to refine a concept, without foreknowledge of which who will actually win. We "pay" our percentage too.

That said, I really don't think it's unreasonable to charge contest holders a little (and really, it is a little) extra for access to this unique service; it's value that you won't find anywhere else. Certainly not at rentacoder or elance.

And I don't think you'll hear any contest holders who have had a logo or website designed here say that they are unhappy with the results, the process, OR the cost. Just take a look at the Testimonals Forum (http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/index.php?s=&act=SF&f=19).

Regards,
Liz

[mittentopbranden]

Chen,
Please work to generate some good karma and calmly step away. Consider those that you are angering now and how they will be happy when you stop this string. Do the right thing. :)
-Brandon
MittenTopRentals.com
Contest Holder

[ElKootcho]

Originally posted by Chen@Jun 27 2003, 04:48 AM
If you visit a city, let's say New York, and purchase a painting from a store, you are not forced to pay the city 10% just because the purchase was performed there, are you?
I don't know what New York's sales policies are, but buy something here in Los Angeles and you pay over 8% sales tax. Same idea.

[Victoria]

17.5% here. :sick:

[cre8or]

7% GST (Government Sales Tax)
8% PST (Provincial Sales Tax)

Only in Canada, you say...

[ElKootcho]

Cre8or, when you win a $100 logo contest, that must be like $300 Canadian! :lol: You can afford 17.5% ;)

[imageconstrux]

Chen - why are your undies in a bundle?

I believe Palmer has explained on more than one occasion why the 'shipping and handling' shows up as it does. And being familiar with the software myself, I know there are some limitations that predicate a setup like that.

As the owner of a business that will close in on $.5M in business this year, I will say that I'm actually worried about Palmer and this site, because the fees that he charges to cover his own costs are paltry. They are nothing. I would not do what he's doing for that kind of $$. Not worth it. (Sorry, Palmer. :) )

I'd suggest that you take a few years off from this petty kind of stuff and build a business of your own, then come back and review your notes. It's so much easier to sit back in the shadows and take target practice than it is to actually stand up and build something, isn't it?

There's no conspiracy here. Stop watching the X-Files.


Jeff

[cre8or]

Originally posted by ElKootcho@Jun 28 2003, 04:24 PM
Cre8or, when you win a $100 logo contest, that must be like $300 Canadian! :lol: You can afford 17.5% ;)
Not quite, but there's a bit of a difference in the exchange.
It helps. :D

I still don't like paying our government... if only they'd get up off their arses an DO something!

[DenRomano]

withdrawn

[Chen]

*sigh*

This will be my last post here since I'm "no longer important". I'm sure Palmer appreciates the way you drive away his customers on this site, bravo.

My point is not that the runner of this site should not make any money from it. My point is that the money needs to come from the designers, who use this service, and not the customers who can get their artwork done in countless other places. And if you can't understand this, then I'm sorry - but I won't draw it for you.

Oh and imageconstrux, I do own a business and while it's not making me $500,000 every year it provides me a living. So keep your nose down, would ya? :yuk:

[Michael]

Originally posted by Chen@Jun 29 2003, 10:14 AM
*sigh*

This will be my last post here since I'm "no longer important". I'm sure Palmer appreciates the way you drive away his customers on this site, bravo.

My point is not that the runner of this site should not make any money from it. My point is that the money needs to come from the designers, who use this service, and not the customers who can get their artwork done in countless other places. And if you can't understand this, then I'm sorry - but I won't draw it for you.

Oh and imageconstrux, I do own a business and while it's not making me $500,000 every year it provides me a living. So keep your nose down, would ya? :yuk:
Hi Chen

Everyone is important on DO so don't take it to heart when someone mentions your not, you came to this site to purchase a logo and then had mixed feelings about the 10%, understandable and I think the way you put it across in your posts you have had every member on your case.

Over here in the UK and likely to be the same everywhere else we have employment agencies what these agencies do is provide businesses with staff. This is what happens:

Mr Cleaner wants to find a job doing cleaning.
He joins an Employment Agency at no cost to him.
The agency then sends out the word that they have a cleaner on their books looking for work.
ABC inc are looking for a cleaner so approach the agency.
The agency tell ABC inc that they charge 10% of what ever Mr Cleaner's salary will be.
Contracts are signed and all 3 party’s go away happy.


Forget about all the tax examples this is how all agencies work and I treat DO as a Design agency Palmer has us on his books and then puts the word out and the contest holders flock in their hundreds to post their needs, we the design team get paid, you get the design you want and Palmer gets something so he can feed his 10 kids.. :lol: and we go away happy.

So Chen we don't want to lose you and I’m sure if you purchase that logo you wont regret it.


Take care


Michael

[Palmer]

Originally posted by Chen@Jun 29 2003, 05:14 AM
My point is not that the runner of this site should not make any money from it. My point is that the money needs to come from the designers, who use this service, and not the customers who can get their artwork done in countless other places.
This site is unique in the way that it offers professional logos and templates. The advantage is definately in the court of the contest holder not the designer. They get sometimes up to 75 different logos to choose from and only have to pay one designer. I honestly don't think you can find anything similar in "countless places". I challenge you to get the quality and quantity of samples to choose from anywhere in the world for the amount of prize money the contest holder puts up. In fact I feel guilty for not paying them. They put in countless hours of work with absolutely no guarantee of getting paid. They do it because they love what they do. I could not ask for a greater group of talented professionals to work alongside.

In addition, I don't look at my former contest holders as driving away business as you say, I look at them as being very passionate about Design Outpost and when this site is spoken poorly of, they are offended and need to speak up.

Personally, I appreciate that, and it just goes to show how happy they are with our service.

[heebgb]

Originally posted by Chen@Jun 28 2003, 04:25 AM
this is not the only site I can get quality art work through....there are hundreds of others I can choose from....I don't feel like paying extra for contests...I think my analogy to the store is perfect.....


1st of all i agree with you about not the only site...but this site is probably one of the VERY few where your opinion REALLY does count...as for the hundreds of others to choose from no one is trying to push you away from this site...i think they are trying to explain WHY things are done the way they are...as for your paying extra and anaolgy to the store...well...there are NO HIDDEN COSTS here...stores wrap up the taxes they have to pay to the cities' by boosting the price...city charges %10 tax....store puts their product up by %15 percent...and thats the price you see...and then pay tax ON TOP of that....at least here EVERYTHING is broke down so EVERYONE knows what they are paying and what they are receiving.i do not know why the fact that they are OPEN about the fact of %10 being charged upsets you...at least they are not hiding anything... no matter which way you look at it you will pay %10.....is it not better to know where the money is going?
(i think i need :help: )

[heebgb]

Originally posted by ElKootcho@Jun 28 2003, 02:24 PM
Cre8or, when you win a $100 logo contest, that must be like $300 Canadian! :lol: You can afford 17.5% ;)
as a fellow canuk the american $$$ is only worth 1.25 canadian up here

( i need :help: )

[heebgb]

Originally posted by 2square@Jun 29 2003, 04:11 AM
Palmer gets something so he can feed his 10 kids
holy smokes palmer.....have you heard of birth control?.....do you have 5 wives?... :lol:

[imageconstrux]

So Chen, if I understand your complaint, it's that you don't like the business model and payment structure of this site? If that's the issue, I have to ask why you care? Care that you get good work. Care that the designers are responsive to your requests. Care that there is follow-up after the contest, if need be. But the part about not liking who gets paid by whom, leave well enough alone.

I like the fact that everything is put on the table, and that we know that when we offer a contest for $150, $150 is going to the winning designer. Not that I would have much of an opinion anyway, but I would like it less if there was some secret percentage the designers had to pay Palmer for the win. But again, that part is not my, nor your business. I believe you called it 'daylight robbery'. I hardly agree.

And my bringing up my business and it's volume? It's because the way you are approaching this 10% additional fee is not like someone who makes financial decisions every day. A mistake that costs us 5 minutes of production costs more than the fee I pay for any contest here. As a fellow business owner, you should recognize costs like this as well. If your business provides ample income to live from, then you should also be far enough down the road to recognize things that are a big deal, and things that are not. This is not. If you're getting this upset over $10, and would insult a guy that works so hard to build this site, maintain it, manage the contest, and have it hosted, all for $5-10/contest, then I guess I am looking down my nose at you.

Palmer's right. People like me are passionate about this site. It's a very interesting twist on a forum community, and provides a service that many of my peers are finding valuable and fun to participate in. So when you call the proprietor of this fun a 'daylight robber', you should expect to get your electronic nose bloodied.

[Raja]

touche

[heebgb]

Originally posted by imageconstrux@Jun 29 2003, 03:57 PM
So when you call the proprietor of this fun a 'daylight robber', you should expect to get your electronic nose bloodied.
does this mean his avitar has a nose bleed?

( I need :help: )